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Old July 19 2014, 09:41 PM   #436
JarodRussell
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Any non-human being is considered an animal, a remnant of this religious "humans are something special" idea. Humans are animals as well. So it is interspecies sexuality. There is no difference between a dolphin fucking a monkey, and a human fucking a sheep. Intelligence has nothing to do with it either. Intelligent gorillas would still be animals.

And that definition doesn't include "extraterrestial animals" because no such thing has been proven to exist. Vulcans, Klingons, Ferengi, etc... are all extraterrestial primates, we are terrestial primates.
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Old July 19 2014, 09:57 PM   #437
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
Do you think Kirk having a three way in Star Trek Into Darkness with women who had cat features qualifies as bestiality?
The sisters were (it seemed) portraying sapient beings, so I'd say no bestiality there.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd like to think that by the time of TNG (and hopefully earlier), that's become a thing of the past for the most part.
Take Me Out to the Holosuite.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Any non-human being is considered an animal ...
On this planet currently that would be true, there's us and the animals (And birdies, fishies etc.). However, bestiality is a prohibition against having sex with animals, the fictional intelligent sapient alien beings depicted in Star Trek are not animals.

They're people.

Humans are animals
Not in my family we're not.

Humans can act "beast-like," but we are not beasts.

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Last edited by Elvira; July 19 2014 at 10:10 PM.
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Old July 19 2014, 10:02 PM   #438
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

@Junkdata

Let's not call a belief in universal personal freedoms 'American values' or 'Western values'. All that accomplishes is to support the narrative that paints any Eastern country that tries to increase personal freedoms as surrendering to Western desires. Just because John Locke was a European and he was the first one to write down that all people have a natural right to life, liberty and property and the government only has the right to intervene when one of those rights is threatened, doesn't mean that those values only apply in the West.

Also, let's draw a line in between an individual's personal beliefs about homosexuality and the role of the law in enforcing those beliefs. You have a right to think homosexuality is wrong but neither you nor the law has any right to stop anybody from practicing it. Nor do either you or the law have any right to stop two consulting adults from voluntarily entering into a contract called 'Marriage' purely on the basis of being the same gender. Just like I think that teaching kids to distrust science is morally wrong but I know neither I nor the law has any right to illegalize it.

Star Trek philosophy is presented more as a Natural Law philosophy, and since homosexuality does not interfere with anybody's right to life, liberty and property, there's no reason to think anybody in the Star Trek universe is opposed to it.


@Jarod Russell

Technically, the definition of a species is a group of organisms that resemble each other and are capable of producing viable offspring who are also capable of reproducing. So by the dictionary definition, humans, vulcans, klingons, and most of the Star Trek races are all the same species.

Last edited by JirinPanthosa; July 19 2014 at 10:16 PM.
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Old July 19 2014, 11:08 PM   #439
JarodRussell
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
@Jarod Russell

Technically, the definition of a species is a group of organisms that resemble each other and are capable of producing viable offspring who are also capable of reproducing. So by the dictionary definition, humans, vulcans, klingons, and most of the Star Trek races are all the same species.
Makes me wonder if it was ever attempted to cross a human and a monkey.

*edit*
There it is, the theoretical concept of the Humanzee.
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Old July 19 2014, 11:54 PM   #440
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

My position on "homosexual rights" has evolved.

If two people of the same sex want to enter into the social contract called marriage, great. More power to them.

In my opinion, government should not be involved. Two consenting adults should be allowed to join together for their mutual benefit.

That said, churches and businesses should not be forced to participate in anything that goes against their own individual fundamental beliefs.

If a church declines to provide their facilities for a gay wedding, so be it. There are plenty of public places to hold a wedding. If a baker declines to put a double groom on top of a cake, fine. That is their prerogative. I'm sure there are plenty of bakers more than willing to take the cash.

Bringing suit against these people is, in my opinion, a waste of time and money. That's not how you change minds, and most certainly not how to change hearts.

The free market system works absolutely, and if there is enough demand for these services someone will supply them.

But back to topic, why specify "homosexual rights"? Aren't basic God-given rights enough for everyone?
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Old July 20 2014, 12:29 AM   #441
JarodRussell
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Okay, now make those examples about institutions and bakers declining black people, women or disabled. Sueing is a waste of time and money, just let "free market" handle everything and discrimination goes away...
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Old July 20 2014, 12:50 AM   #442
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Okay, now make those examples about institutions and bakers declining black people, women or disabled. Sueing is a waste of time and money, just let "free market" handle everything and discrimination goes away...
We're not talking about skin color, and gender has nothing to do with it. The ADA takes care of disabled access to public buildings and private businesses.

Nice try, though.

The courts are full of BS lawsuits, people trying to trump the rights of others. How about we live and let live, and stop trying to force through the courts our views on those who we can't convince through polite conversation?

How about a little IDIC instead of taking my olive branch and poking me with it?
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Old July 20 2014, 01:23 AM   #443
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

urbandefault wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Okay, now make those examples about institutions and bakers declining black people, women or disabled. Sueing is a waste of time and money, just let "free market" handle everything and discrimination goes away...
We're not talking about skin color, and gender has nothing to do with it. The ADA takes care of disabled access to public buildings and private businesses.
Yes, we are talking sexual orientation. Which, just like race, gender and disability, is not a choice. Treating people differently because of their race, gender, disability or sexual orientation is discrimination.

The courts are full of BS lawsuits, people trying to trump the rights of others. How about we live and let live, and stop trying to force through the courts our views on those who we can't convince through polite conversation?
Trump the right to discriminate people? We need to live and let live those who DO NOT want to let live others? This is funny, you are basically saying we need to tolerate the intolerant.
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Old July 20 2014, 01:57 AM   #444
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Okay, now make those examples about institutions and bakers declining black people, women or disabled. Sueing is a waste of time and money, just let "free market" handle everything and discrimination goes away...
Making discrimination go away will never be accomplished through legislation. A business refusing to sell to any group would be bad for business, but it should not be illegal, nor subject that business to litigation.

Now, if people discover that business's policies and choose to take their patronage elsewhere, that would their choice.

If Starbucks refuses to sell me coffee because I carry a concealed weapon, I go elsewhere (or just don't tell them).

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Old July 20 2014, 02:13 AM   #445
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

urbandefault wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Okay, now make those examples about institutions and bakers declining black people, women or disabled. Sueing is a waste of time and money, just let "free market" handle everything and discrimination goes away...
We're not talking about skin color, and gender has nothing to do with it. The ADA takes care of disabled access to public buildings and private businesses.

Nice try, though.

The courts are full of BS lawsuits, people trying to trump the rights of others. How about we live and let live, and stop trying to force through the courts our views on those who we can't convince through polite conversation?

How about a little IDIC instead of taking my olive branch and poking me with it?

As a gay man, I appreciate your evolution.
There has never been an attempt to give gay people special rights, only equality and protection from discrimination.

This whole debate over religious people barring gay people from business isn't just about wedding services. As a gay man living in a small town, if the few small businesses in my town decided to bar me for being gay, I could have trouble getting gas, medical care, groceries, prescriptions,etc. People in a large city could afford to just not take their business to a homophobic business, but in a small town, choices are limited, and there's usually going to be more homophobia in a small town too - I live in rural Oklahoma where our elected officials speak freely and frequently against gay people, one of our congresspersons said gays were more dangerous to America than terrorists. I can't afford to trust my state officials to protect my rights. A few hours away a restaraunt made national news because the owner has turned out customers for being gay, and other minorities - one customer in a wheelchair was denied service because he might make the other customers "uncomfortable". This isn't just about wedding cakes.

The religious objection in business can be a slippery slope. What if medical providers and emergency workers didn't want to perform emergency services on a gay person? That has happened before that I know of, a few years ago there was a story of EMT workers refusing to give life saving care to a trans woman in a car accident, and she died.

It's no more right to deny service to someone on the basis of orientation than it is to do so for race or gender.
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Old July 20 2014, 03:11 AM   #446
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
What if medical providers and emergency workers didn't want to perform emergency services on a gay person?
Likely it would be a condition of their employment and something that they would have been questioned about when being interviewed for the job position. Such a person would never be hire by a public fire department, nor the vast majority of medical organizations.

A friend of mine is a nurse and she had to answer questions on this very matter for all three of her nursing jobs (I called her). It isn't just a matter of gay people, it's genders, social classes, religions, professions.

If you're Muslim and a patient who handles pork meat comes in, you will have previously agreed to treat them, or you wouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Now at a small private run clinic, this might be different.

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Old July 20 2014, 03:17 AM   #447
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
What if medical providers and emergency workers didn't want to perform emergency services on a gay person?
Likely it would be a condition of their employment and something that they would have been questioned about when being interviewed for the job position. Such a person would never be hire by a public fire department, nor any medical organization.

A friend of mine is a nurse and she had to answer questions on this very matter for all three of her nursing jobs (I called her). It isn't just a matter of gay people, it's genders, social classes, religions, professions.

If you're Muslim and a patient who handles pork meat comes in, you will have previously agreed to treat them, or you wouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Now at a small private clinic, this might be different.

I'd hope that anyone in a medical profession would be committed to the value of saving lives and healing the sick and injured regardless of any prejudice, but there have been instances where this hasn't been the case. I'd hate to think an LGBT person would die because the person they depended on for life saving emergency care thought they had a right to refuse service based on their religious objections to that person's orientation or any other excuse. It's happened before, and these religious objection laws would be a slippery slope that could well lead to things like this happening.

If nothing else, these kind of things could be used to drive a person from a small community where they wouldn't have a lot of alternatives if they were shut out of their small town's resources. A small town with one grocery store, one gas station, one general practioner doctor, etc, could pretty easily make their town unusable to anyone they thought was LGBT, if they wished.
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Old July 20 2014, 03:22 AM   #448
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

If a bakery doesn't want to put two grooms on the top of a wedding cake, I'll open up a bakery that will and steal all their business.

I'd say there's a difference between deciding not to offer specific services and deciding to deny the services you offer to specific individuals. And despite what the conservative activist supreme court says, companies can't invoke freedom of religion in order to exempt themselves from the law. You can choose the services you offer but you can't pick and choose what customers you offer them to, and you can't force your beliefs on your employees because freedom of religion does not apply to what corporations offer for employee benefits.
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Old July 20 2014, 03:28 AM   #449
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I think this thread has Fonzied.
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Old July 20 2014, 03:40 AM   #450
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Well, we have at least gotten a bit off track talking about modern day LGBT issues instead of homosexual rights in Star Trek.

I do really enjoy seeing how LGBT characters and issues are dealt with alien races and cultures. We get a vague impression at least that Bajorans and Trills are very accepting from the way Kira and Dax react in the Reassociation with Dax and Kahn, and the gender issues of the Ferengi make them seem like they'd be homophobic as well as misogynistic.
The novels have shown us open and accepted Klingons males married to each other. Andorians are pressured to marry in four gendered marriages necessary to reproduce, and it seems that an Andorian who would only be with one - or even just two - other people would be as socially unaccepted as someone who chose not to have children for any other reason. But what about older Andorians past their fertile period?

I do wonder how the Federation, free of prejudice, deals with issues like the Andorians. I suppose as long as the issues were on a societal level and not sanctioned legally it wouldn't be such an issue.


When watching/reading science fiction, I think it's pretty common to imagine what our lives would be like in that world, but as a gay man, I often don't know where and how I'd belong in those worlds, so I do appreciate that the Trek novels at least have explored LGBT characters.
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