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Old June 30 2014, 05:46 AM   #391
T'Girl
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

ORCI wrote: View Post
A gay character that is both open and is integral to the plot is ‘not necessary’ in Star Trek 3, according to the director.
The introduction of a integral gay character is less likely to occur in a movie, and far more like to happen in a TV series.

Orci's movie will consist of nonsensical dramatic dialogue, explosions, girls in their underwear and lots of running around with the camera slightly tilted.

So where does he insert a gay character?

Well, there's the newest villain. A Baron Harkonnen type perhaps? Or one of the villains henchmen.

Within the current movies Scott, Sulu and Chekov's sexualities haven't been established. Or a new good guy, problem with the new guy is that the movie is already top heavy with good guy main characters.

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Old June 30 2014, 06:01 AM   #392
Maurice
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/s...ecessary270614

A gay character that is both open and is integral to the plot is ‘not necessary’ in Star Trek 3, according to the director.
Roberto Orci has spoken about the follow-up to the adventures of the USS Enterprise, last seen in Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness (2013).
But even though the film will take place over 200 years in the future, Orci said he has doubts we will ever see a character having a same-sex relationship.
‘It can be part of a character and not be the whole shebang,’ he said on the Humans From Earth podcast....
Same old tired dodges. "It can be part of the character and not the whole shebang". Like any other well-written character. Duh.
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Old June 30 2014, 08:15 PM   #393
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
So where does he insert a gay character?
I say that they give the fans what they want and finally show Kirk and Spock admitting their true feelings for one another, followed by them getting down and dirty in the middle of the bridge--we all know what's really going on there!

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Old June 30 2014, 08:53 PM   #394
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
So where does he insert a gay character?
I say that they give the fans what they want and finally show Kirk and Spock admitting their true feelings for one another, followed by them getting down and dirty in the middle of the bridge--we all know what's really going on there!

Don't tease me!
I was thinking it wouldn't be too much of a strech to see Kirk have a threeway with a woman and another man, since we've already had him have a threeway with two women. I don't think it's too big a strech to imagine a bi Kirk (and that would put his one step closer to the Kirk/Spock pairing I really want!) Of course, there would be rioting in the streets if Kirk were outed as being bi.

Also I bet we'd hear a lot more on the moral outrage of it all, even though the previous threeway didn't get a blip on the public's morality police.
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Old June 30 2014, 10:31 PM   #395
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
Don't tease me!
I was thinking it wouldn't be too much of a strech to see Kirk have a threeway with a woman and another man, since we've already had him have a threeway with two women. I don't think it's too big a strech to imagine a bi Kirk (and that would put his one step closer to the Kirk/Spock pairing I really want!) Of course, there would be rioting in the streets if Kirk were outed as being bi.

Also I bet we'd hear a lot more on the moral outrage of it all, even though the previous threeway didn't get a blip on the public's morality police.
After all the earache (no pun intended) Spock is getting from Uhura about not being in touch with his feelings (he's half-Vulcan for crying out loud!), he deserves to be with someone who actually appreciated him (and with whom he actually had some onscreen chemistry with), whilst all Kirk's bed-hopping does is show that no woman can satisfy him (and I doubt Carol Marcus and her daddy issues will be much of a distraction for him).

It makes total sense to me

If the PTB finally had these two getting together on the next NuTrek film I'd be first in line to see it at my local cinema! Actually, it may be the only thing that would make me want to go and see it.
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Old June 30 2014, 10:41 PM   #396
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

So the very first gay character in Star Trek would be a Barney Stinson type bitch? Good choice.
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Old July 1 2014, 08:39 AM   #397
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
lso I bet we'd hear a lot more on the moral outrage of it all, even though the previous threeway didn't get a blip on the public's morality police.
Would the "other guy" in your sex scene have a tail?



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Old July 2 2014, 01:17 AM   #398
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I am new here and I guess,I am extremely late to this party but as a Christan and a person of strong faith, I have never personally promoted or supported homosexuality.However I am very tolerant of it because you can not escape it in any tv show or films anymore.

However it feels like if a person say they disagree with homosexuality they are immediately called homophobes, intolerant and can even get banned on fandoms forums. I genuinely respect other people's opinion and we can all agree to disagree on such complex subjects like homosexuality and even the human sexuality but I do not get where all of this is coming from. how come all this trek characters like kirk, spock, the ferengi all of a sudden must now be gay?


most of this characters we have mentioned already have established loving relationship with the opposite sex. (Spock and Savik) I do not see how and why they all of a sudden must now leave their loving partners and enter into a sexual relationship with their same sex bffs.

I don't think when Gene created pon farr he had to rethink the issue. Gene created pon farr for vulcan men and vuclan women to mate. it is why Vulcan men marry vulcan women even when they are babies. their vulcan parents arranges it for their kids, so technically and in theory the Vulcan tradition does not support homosexuality because if it did they would not have all their men marry their women by default, Vulcans saw sexual acts as male and female.

I am not hating or attacking anyone but I believe even in a public scifi forum. I want to stand up for my Christian faith and my beliefs with me being prosecuted, mocked and ridiculed like Hollywood has done for so long to Christians who have a different view of homosexuality.

We are talking of homosexual rights and that is fine it is a social debate. However, I want to see Christian/jewish rights in star trek as well. all group of people should be welcomed in trek regardless of their faith, race or sexual orientation. People of faith are not represented at all in pop culture or in fiction we are usually ridiculed and used as comic relief. Trek can correct this error.

Last edited by xavier; July 2 2014 at 01:30 AM.
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Old July 2 2014, 02:11 AM   #399
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
I am new here and I guess,I am extremely late to this party but as a Christan and a person of strong faith, I have never personally promoted or supported homosexuality.However I am very tolerant of it because you can not escape it in any tv show or films anymore.
Concession is not tolerance.

However it feels like if a person say they disagree with homosexuality they are immediately called homophobes,
Because there is no sound logical reason to "disagree" with homosexuality. Any discord is almost always a result (either directly or indirectly) of fear or enmity. That's literally the definition of phobia.

intolerant and can even get banned on fandoms forums. I genuinely respect other people's opinion and we can all agree to disagree on such complex subjects like homosexuality and even the human sexuality
And herein lies the problem. There is nothing complicated about it. Nothing. Any attempt to assert as such is needless obfuscation.

but I do not get where all of this is coming from. how come all this trek characters like kirk, spock, the ferengi all of a sudden must now be gay?
Who said they did?

most of this characters we have mentioned already have established loving relationship with the opposite sex. (Spock and Savik) I do not see how and why they all of a sudden must now leave their loving partners and enter into a sexual relationship with their same sex bffs.
Very few characters in Star Trek are in committed relationships. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

And even if true, people break up all the time. Would you have a problem if a couple broke up and each found a new partner of the opposite sex?

Hell, one of the most clichéd stories in Hollywood is about a people in relationships goes through a bad break ups only to realize their long-time BFFs are the loves of their lives.

I don't think when Gene created pon farr he had to rethink the issue. Gene created pon farr for vulcan men and vuclan women to mate. it is why Vulcan men marry vulcan women even when they are babies. their vulcan parents arranges it for their kids, so technically and in theory the Vulcan tradition does not support homosexuality because if it did they would not have all their men marry their women by default, Vulcans saw sexual acts as male and female.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Also, Roddenberry didn't write "Amok Time."

I am not hating or attacking anyone but I believe even in a public scifi forum. I want to stand up for my Christian faith and my beliefs with me being prosecuted, mocked and ridiculed like Hollywood has done for so long to Christians who have a different view of homosexuality.
They (like the rest of us) don't mock so much as point out the blatant hypocrisy in the cherry picking. The West Wing did this better than I ever could.

I should add that the pointing was done by the main character who, like the show's creator, was Christian.

We are talking of homosexual rights and that is fine it is a social debate. However, I want to see Christian/jewish rights in star trek as well. all group of people should be welcomed in trek regardless of their faith, race or sexual orientation. People of faith are not represented at all in pop culture or in fiction we are usually ridiculed and used as comic relief. Trek can correct this error.
The problem here is that, simplistically speaking, "faith" is antithetical to Star Trek's conceptual core.
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Old July 2 2014, 03:42 AM   #400
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
I am new here and I guess,I am extremely late to this party but as a Christan and a person of strong faith, I have never personally promoted or supported homosexuality.However I am very tolerant of it because you can not escape it in any tv show or films anymore.

However it feels like if a person say they disagree with homosexuality they are immediately called homophobes, intolerant and can even get banned on fandoms forums. I genuinely respect other people's opinion and we can all agree to disagree on such complex subjects like homosexuality and even the human sexuality but I do not get where all of this is coming from. how come all this trek characters like kirk, spock, the ferengi all of a sudden must now be gay?


most of this characters we have mentioned already have established loving relationship with the opposite sex. (Spock and Savik) I do not see how and why they all of a sudden must now leave their loving partners and enter into a sexual relationship with their same sex bffs.

I don't think when Gene created pon farr he had to rethink the issue. Gene created pon farr for vulcan men and vuclan women to mate. it is why Vulcan men marry vulcan women even when they are babies. their vulcan parents arranges it for their kids, so technically and in theory the Vulcan tradition does not support homosexuality because if it did they would not have all their men marry their women by default, Vulcans saw sexual acts as male and female.

I am not hating or attacking anyone but I believe even in a public scifi forum. I want to stand up for my Christian faith and my beliefs with me being prosecuted, mocked and ridiculed like Hollywood has done for so long to Christians who have a different view of homosexuality.

We are talking of homosexual rights and that is fine it is a social debate. However, I want to see Christian/jewish rights in star trek as well. all group of people should be welcomed in trek regardless of their faith, race or sexual orientation. People of faith are not represented at all in pop culture or in fiction we are usually ridiculed and used as comic relief. Trek can correct this error.

It's not your place to agree or disagree with other people's sexual orientation. You sound prejudiced to me, and worse, are quick to take the role of victim here. The vast majority of media is steeped in Christianity, but it's so pervasive that you take it for granted and thus don't see it. The discussion of homosexuality in Star Trek is nothing new. Fans were writing romantic fiction for Kirk and Spock as far back as the 70s at least. Gay relationships were erased from culture then and that was one avenue people had of finding diversity and inclusion.

Just because the only Vulcans we see on tv are straight doesn't mean that all Vulcans are. The novels have had a gay male Vulcan, brother to Selar. Selar herself had a relationship with a bisexual hermaphrodite, and Vanguard has a lesbian Vulcan T'Prynn. The Vulcans do embrace the concept of IDIC - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. There are many other gay characters in the novels from many different races, and for what it's worth, it was the novels that developed Spock and Saavik's relationship to being one of romance and eventually marriage. The Vulcan tradition of arranged marriages doesn't really say much about the orientations of the people who weren't given a say in the choice of their spouse.


The topic is homosexual rights in Star Trek. I suggest if you want to discuss Christianity in Star Trek you start a new thread for that. I would say that perhaps people would have more respect for religion when it's practitioners stop using it as a weapon against gays and other minorities.
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Old July 2 2014, 04:49 AM   #401
PhoenixClass
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
*** I do not get where all of this is coming from. how come all this trek characters like kirk, spock, the ferengi all of a sudden must now be gay?

most of this characters we have mentioned already have established loving relationship with the opposite sex. (Spock and Savik) I do not see how and why they all of a sudden must now leave their loving partners and enter into a sexual relationship with their same sex bffs.
Many details of Star Trek are being changed for the new movies. i don't think anyone has argued that any character should leave a relationship. But a character's sexuality can certainly be changed with other details.

xavier wrote: View Post
I don't think when Gene created pon farr he had to rethink the issue. Gene created pon farr for vulcan men and vuclan women to mate. it is why Vulcan men marry vulcan women even when they are babies. their vulcan parents arranges it for their kids, so technically and in theory the Vulcan tradition does not support homosexuality because if it did they would not have all their men marry their women by default, Vulcans saw sexual acts as male and female.
You can imagine that homosexuality simply does not exist in Vulcan psychology. We have only seen heterosexual couples on screen so the canon is silent on the matter of homosexuality. Of course, because canon is silent on the matter, imagining the existence of homosexuality among Vulcans is also possible.

xavier wrote: View Post
We are talking of homosexual rights and that is fine it is a social debate. However, I want to see Christian/jewish rights in star trek as well. all group of people should be welcomed in trek regardless of their faith, race or sexual orientation. People of faith are not represented at all in pop culture or in fiction we are usually ridiculed and used as comic relief. Trek can correct this error.
I'm not sure what you mean by Christian/Jewish rights. If you mean freedom to have religious beliefs, then the human society espoused in Star Trek clearly allows for it. However, as another poster noted, it does not espouse religious belief as preferable. Star Trek has a secular humanist theme in it.
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Old July 2 2014, 09:57 AM   #402
Maurice
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
...as [a] Christ[i]an and a person of strong faith, I have never personally promoted or supported homosexuality. However I am very tolerant of it because you can not escape it...
Let's play a little game called word substitution.

... as an atheist and a person strong on skepticism, I have never personally promoted or supported christianity. However I am very tolerant of it because you can not escape it...

I could do this all day.
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Old July 2 2014, 02:07 PM   #403
1001001
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Yikes.

A friendly reminder to everyone to please stay on the topic of Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe.

Broader political/philosophical discussions can go in Miscellaneous and/or TNZ.

Thanks!

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Old July 2 2014, 02:55 PM   #404
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Kira, the most religious character in Trek, had no issues with Jadzia and Lenara, even encouraging for them to be together.

Hopefully by Trek time, people will realise that religion loves all, it's people that discriminate in its name.
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Old July 2 2014, 03:30 PM   #405
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
We have only seen heterosexual couples on screen so the canon is silent on the matter of homosexuality
The deliberate decision on the part of the network, various producers and other in "TPTB" to exclude non-heterosexual relationships (both romance and sex) is not an example of silence, within the canon it speaks quite loudly.

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