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Old June 27 2014, 09:29 AM   #376
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
The two cases that I think might produce contradictory results are the Ferengi and Vulcan. Both might tolerate homosexuality, but other values might discourage it. Quark and other Ferengi have generally treated relationships, sexual as well as purely reproductive, as acquisitions. Moreover, Ferengi have a skewed understanding of gender, which is reflected in the unequal relationship of marriage. How far can a same-sex relationship go if a it must be formalized contractually at some point? Ferengi might not regard such relationships as aberrant, but not being good business might have take a toll.
The Ferengi are the biggest horn-dogs in the galaxy (after Kirk that is), eyeing females as little more than property with brides being essentially bought from their fathers--of course that is going to skew their perception on relations with the opposite sex. There is a Rule of Acquisition (I forget which number) that says it never hurts to suck up to the boss, one way to accomplish that would be to offer sexual favours. As for a formalised contractual same-sex relationship, wouldn't it be the same way as hiring an escort/gigolo/prostitute--you pay money for expected physical gratification (the Ferengi would just have more paperwork ).

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Conversely, what happens when a species is either indifferent to or actively seeks to repress its basic drives? Vulcan relationships are so ritualized and formalized that I think it's fair to wonder whether there is room for recreative sexuality of any type, hetero- or homosexual. The fact that two children are psychically bonded before they (probably) can express themselves with sexual maturity is extraordinarily problematic. From T'Pol, I get the sense that most Vulcans see relationships as a formality that they all go through without really questioning things. I guess two boys or two girls could be bonded at an early age, but we would be left with the same questions Trip made about heterosexual marriage: how can an individual want the relationship that has been arranged for them? I guess what I am saying is that it may not matter whether Vulcans tolerate homosexual relationships (or if they are common) is there isn't much room for free will and self-expression in any relationship.
Given Vulcans Victorian-esque view of sex of all kinds, then intercourse between those of the same sex is probably discussed about as often as they are the opposite sex, which is rarely in public or private. Those that are attracted to the same sex would undergo pon farr, take a partner and "purge" their urge (pon farr may be a mating drive, but it clearly doesn't need to result in conception during every cycle). Thanks to T'Pol we also know that Vulcans are capable of (and sometimes seek out) sex outwith pon farr so those of any orientation could 'enjoy' it whenever they wanted, if it was logical of course .
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Old June 28 2014, 12:53 PM   #377
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Given Vulcans Victorian-esque view of sex of all kinds, then intercourse between those of the same sex is probably discussed about as often as they are the opposite sex, which is rarely in public or private.
Hmmm, Spock had a great deal of difficulty discussing sexually matters with his male best friend in Amok Time, but later (Cloud Minders) had no problems discussing the same matters with a woman that he found attractive.

Those that are attracted to the same sex would undergo pon farr, take a partner and "purge" their urge (pon farr may be a mating drive, but it clearly doesn't need to result in conception during every cycle).
But if pon farr is primarily a "mating/reproductive drive" then a gay Vulcan (male of female) might have their sexual orientation "over-ridden" for the duration pon farr with the psychological compulsion to mate with a member of the opposite gender.

Thanks to T'Pol we also know that Vulcans are capable of (and sometimes seek out) sex outwith pon farr ...
Would T'Pol (or any Vulcan female) be capable of conceiving outside of pon farr?

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Old June 28 2014, 01:48 PM   #378
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Hmm, that's an interesting question, if Vulcan women only can concieve during Pon Farr. I don't think we know enough to say for sure. In New Frontier, Selar concieved during Pon Farr, and there were scrapped plans for Saavik to concieve in STIII.
New Frontier had a small supporting character of Selar's gay brother who was said not to go thru Pon Farr. Vanguard has a lesbian Vulcan T'Prynn who did go thru Pon Farr.
From that we could assume that homosexual female Vulcans go thru Pon Farr, but males don't.
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Old June 28 2014, 05:02 PM   #379
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I look at pon farr like the mating cycle of pandas, in that it is the brief time every 7 years in which they are fertile and capable of conceiving a child. Since it's a neurological condition that affects all Vulcans regardless of orientation, then those undergoing it would all be looking to get their rocks off with their preferred sex.
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Old June 28 2014, 07:45 PM   #380
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
Vanguard has a lesbian Vulcan T'Prynn who did go thru Pon Farr.
That's the character who served as her own champion in kalle-fee?

.. and there were scrapped plans for Saavik to concieve in STIII.
It's not impossible that she did, although after three months (and given Robin Curtis' figure) there should have been an obvious "baby bump," however Vulcans might experience a protracted gestation cycle.

Many fans assume that Spock's eventual marriage some fifty years later was to Saavik.

New Frontier had a small supporting character of Selar's gay brother who was said not to go thru Pon Farr.
How old was he, might it have been a case of he simply had experienced pon farr yet? Spock had his first pon farr in his mid-thirties, T'Pol would have been over fifty, so there might be a wide varible as to when you get your "first one."

From that we could assume that homosexual female Vulcans go thru Pon Farr, but males don't.
Possible. Modern day understanding as to what "makes you gay" has to do with your brain's architecture. Just as heteros of both genders have different brain structures from each other, gays are different still. So the portion of the Vulcan brain that results in pon farr might be non-functional, incomplete, or simply missing in the brains of gay males.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I look at pon farr like the mating cycle of pandas, in that it is the brief time every 7 years in which they are fertile and capable of conceiving a child.
The window of opportunity might be more than the small number of days that Human females have monthly, Vulcan's reproductive systems could be "switched on" for a few months with each pon farr.

... those undergoing it would all be looking to get their rocks off with their preferred sex.
With discussion on this subject, I keep returning to something Spock said ...

"we are driven by forces we cannot control to return home and take a wife."


That to me says that pon farr isn't solely about engaging in sex. The first pon farr could include the component of a compulsion to establish a household and a family unit. Not just engage in sex. This would make sense, especially in primitive times, it would increase the survival rate for children.


Last edited by Elvira; June 28 2014 at 07:57 PM.
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Old June 28 2014, 10:17 PM   #381
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Yes, T'Prynn fought as her own champion in kallee-fee.

The Vucan's Forge/Heart/Soul novels do detail Spock's marriage to Saavik.

I don't know how old Selar's brother was, but there is dialogue about how he doesn't go thru Pon Farr, it's obviously intended that he will never go thru it, and implied that that is standard for gay male Vulcans iirc.

Spock was speaking about his own situation though. I think it's a pretty broad interpretation to interpret that a gay Vulcan would be motivated to form a heterosexual union. T'Prynn certainly didn't seem interested in her male betrothed. I think what Spock means is that Pon Farr physically drives him to have sex, and by Vulcan tradition that means marrying first. Selar does "mate" during her Pon Farr in New Frontier, but she's explicitly not interested in marriage. It's worth pointing out though that she is a widow whose husband had died during Pon Farr a few years ago while mating with her - the excitement was too much for him apparently.
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Old June 29 2014, 03:50 AM   #382
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

The rules of acquisition I think prove the Ferengi tolerance of homosexuality.

#113: Always have sex with the boss.

As for the 'anti-homophobia pill' thing, I can't tell if you guys really don't recognize it as a parody of homophobe's solutions to curing homosexuality or if you're just playing along.

There are parents who actually send their gay children to camps to try to force them to become straight, and it's a horrible, barbaric practice. There are also people who insist that faithfulness to God can cure homosexuality and all they accomplish is to inflict self-hatred on innocent people.

Of course just exposing children to homosexuality as something normal and educating them properly is a far more effective way to fight homophobia than any kind of cartoonishly radical persecution.

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Old June 29 2014, 07:33 AM   #383
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
it's a horrible, barbaric practice
People should not be sent to a camp to make them be or think in a different way.

I think what Spock means is that Pon Farr physically drives him to have sex, and by Vulcan tradition that means marrying first.
Not my interpretation, YMMV.

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Old June 29 2014, 08:18 AM   #384
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

The Overlord wrote: View Post
It also seems that the Ferengi Alliance would not tolerate homosexuals, given how sexist the society is, any Ferengi who displays any sort feminine personality traits (like being attracted to men) would likely be treated as an outcast.
The 113 Rule of Acquisition would encourage homosexual behaviour...
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Old June 29 2014, 12:59 PM   #385
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I think it's completely believable that the Ferengi would be gay for pay if the money were good enough lol
As for the whole anti gay camp thing, I knew a teenage guy in the late 80s whose parents committed him against his will to a private mental hospital to de-gay him. There was a whole group of gay kids in that program. He got out later by pretending to have fallen in love with a lesbian who was there.
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Old June 29 2014, 04:26 PM   #386
Enterprise1701
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I don't understand how anyone buys the idea that homosexuality can be "cured" and holds to it steadfastly. It's one of the worst loads of crap I know of.
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Old June 29 2014, 04:37 PM   #387
JarodRussell
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I wouldn't consider the change of sexual orientation a "cure", because it's not a disease, and homosexuality does not endanger anyone. But I wouldn't rule out that it's possible to change sexual orientation. All it means is that you change the priming, what features a person reacts to. Some react to male features, some to female, others to the features of children, others to the features of elderly, and again others to features of certain animals. It's the same mechanism, and once it's understood, it's probably possible to change it.

ICD-10 defines pedophilia as "sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age". And that one is believed to be "cured" one day, meaning that it is believed it's possible to change the sexual preference of pedophiles to something other than children. So why should it technically be impossible to change the sexual preference in general?
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Old June 29 2014, 07:16 PM   #388
Elvira
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
I don't understand how anyone buys the idea that homosexuality can be "cured" and holds to it steadfastly.
If you step away from the term "cured," given the medical science we've seen on the show it's likely that they would have the ability to change a person's sexual orientation.

DNA resequencing, chemical infusions, micro surgery.

The real question is would they? The Bashir's were able to find someone to preform a illegal procedure on their young son.

borgboy wrote: View Post
I think it's completely believable that the Ferengi would be gay for pay if the money were good enough
Which wouldn't make the individual gay. It's the difference between what you're doing, and what you are.

A heterosexual, engaging in sexual acts with a member of the same sex for money, is still a heterosexual.

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Old June 29 2014, 07:38 PM   #389
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Quark did think that the female Ferengi that was passing as a man was making a move on him, at least right before he found out the truth. I think any species that has gender will have homosexuality. That seems to be the way it works in Trek from what we've seen. At the very least in the novels when gay and alternative orientations among aliens are seen, there doesn't seem to be any surprise. It's presented as being completely natural, and in the novels there have been gay Trills, Klingons, Vulcans, humans of course, and an Andorian who is not attracted to three different genders would be the minority.
Are there any other alien races we've seen gay members of that I didn't mention?
If Q could even be said to have gender and an orientation I think he'd be a bisexual male.
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Old June 29 2014, 08:38 PM   #390
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Just found this.

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/s...ecessary270614


A gay character that is both open and is integral to the plot is ‘not necessary’ in Star Trek 3, according to the director.
Roberto Orci has spoken about the follow-up to the adventures of the USS Enterprise, last seen in Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness (2013).
But even though the film will take place over 200 years in the future, Orci said he has doubts we will ever see a character having a same-sex relationship.
‘It can be part of a character and not be the whole shebang,’ he said on the Humans From Earth podcast.
‘It doesn't have to be like South Park, like “what have we learned today”.
‘It can be so normalized that it just exists. I agree it can't be shoe-horned in. And it is not necessary for it to be the whole point of the thing.
‘It is an ensemble and there is lots of people to represent so no one point of view should hog it.’
- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/s...jzK.J119XqUp.d
gay character that is both open and is integral to the plot is ‘not necessary’ in Star Trek 3, according to the director.
Roberto Orci has spoken about the follow-up to the adventures of the USS Enterprise, last seen in Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness (2013).
But even though the film will take place over 200 years in the future, Orci said he has doubts we will ever see a character having a same-sex relationship.
‘It can be part of a character and not be the whole shebang,’ he said on the Humans From Earth podcast.
‘It doesn't have to be like South Park, like “what have we learned today”.
‘It can be so normalized that it just exists. I agree it can't be shoe-horned in. And it is not necessary for it to be the whole point of the thing.
‘It is an ensemble and there is lots of people to represent so no one point of view should hog it.’
- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/s....J119XqUp.dpuf
Star Trek 3 director: Open gay character ‘not necessary’


Roberto Orci says it would not be right to 'shoe-horn' in a character that was openly gay just for the sake of it
27 June 2014 | By Joe Morgan


A gay character that is both open and is integral to the plot is ‘not necessary’ in Star Trek 3, according to the director.
Roberto Orci has spoken about the follow-up to the adventures of the USS Enterprise, last seen in Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness (2013).
But even though the film will take place over 200 years in the future, Orci said he has doubts we will ever see a character having a same-sex relationship.
‘It can be part of a character and not be the whole shebang,’ he said on the Humans From Earth podcast.
‘It doesn't have to be like South Park, like “what have we learned today”.
‘It can be so normalized that it just exists. I agree it can't be shoe-horned in. And it is not necessary for it to be the whole point of the thing.
‘It is an ensemble and there is lots of people to represent so no one point of view should hog it.’
Star Trek 3 is slated for 2016.



- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/s....J119XqUp.dpuf
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