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Old April 10 2014, 03:26 AM   #346
Sci
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Well, if you consider founding worlds, Alpha Centaurans are human ...
That's has never made sense to me.

Of the limited number of founder worlds of the Federation, two were Human? To me it would make more sense if each of the Federation's five founders were of a different species.
Why would that be a source of confusion? It's a fairly simple scenario: Humans settled Alpha Centauri, Centaurian Humans developed their own unique culture and political identity, they decided they no longer wished to be a political subdivision of United Earth and instead wanted to be independent of U.E., and then they decided they wanted to co-found the Federation as equal partners with Earth, Vulcan, and Andor.

Being Humans doesn't mean they're gonna see things eye-to-eye with United Earth -- it's entirely plausible that the Federation Councillor for Alpha Centauri might vote in common more with the Councillor for Andor than the Councillor for Earth.

For the record, here is a scene from the ENT novel Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures by the TrekBBS's own Christopher (aka, Christopher L. Bennett) that might shed some light on things:

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Old April 20 2014, 11:53 PM   #347
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

CTGuyton wrote: View Post

I still contend that anything less than 10-15% can be classified as rare.
Ah, so "rare" would include:

Protestants - 8.15% of world population
Atheists 2.01% of world population

Roman Catholics just escape being rare with 18.85% of the world population.

Source:
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Old April 21 2014, 12:11 AM   #348
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Actually, they are, since the Alpha Centauri colony was founded BY humans.
Yes, there was a Human colony established on one of the worlds orbiting one of the stars in the Rigil Kentaurus system, but does that preclude there being a indigious technological native population prior to their arrival?


Last edited by T'Girl; April 21 2014 at 12:29 AM.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:41 PM   #349
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I stumbled over this story.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-me-gay-155075

It's one of the phenomenons tied to neurological restructuring after brain damage. Some people become painters, musicians, or excel at mathematical understanding, and this dude claims it changed his sexual orientation. Which, if true, would basically mean that it's actually possible to change your orientation when you treat certain regions of the brain. Which, by the 24th century, would then probably be an option for people. On the other hand, it could also be possible that, even if it WAS medically possible, that "treatment" would still be a taboo.


The other implication is, but that's beyond this thread, that you could purposefully enhance your abilities by destroying areas of the brain, so that during the healing process the neurological pathways are efficiently restructured. In 300 years, who knows? Maybe that's for the other thread about disabilities in Star Trek.
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Old June 9 2014, 06:04 PM   #350
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

How reputable is The Mirror?

Also, my understanding is that neurological and nerve damage is mostly permanent. While the brainma grw new nerves and routes around the damage, the damage itself cannot be fixed. Intentionally damaging ones brain in order to enhance abilitirs may not be feesable or a good idea.
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Old June 10 2014, 06:10 AM   #351
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

The man in question, Chris Birch was all over the British media a few years ago. There's an hour long documentary about him. Human behavior is seldom as simple as a single switch, so one man's experience is one man's experience.
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Old June 15 2014, 05:31 AM   #352
T'Girl
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

CTGuyton wrote: View Post
I still contend that anything less than 10-15% can be classified as rare.
Does the apply when ordering beef steak in a restaurant?

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Old June 15 2014, 06:24 AM   #353
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I stumbled over this story.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-me-gay-155075

It's one of the phenomenons tied to neurological restructuring after brain damage. Some people become painters, musicians, or excel at mathematical understanding, and this dude claims it changed his sexual orientation. Which, if true, would basically mean that it's actually possible to change your orientation when you treat certain regions of the brain. Which, by the 24th century, would then probably be an option for people. On the other hand, it could also be possible that, even if it WAS medically possible, that "treatment" would still be a taboo.


The other implication is, but that's beyond this thread, that you could purposefully enhance your abilities by destroying areas of the brain, so that during the healing process the neurological pathways are efficiently restructured. In 300 years, who knows? Maybe that's for the other thread about disabilities in Star Trek.
I think I have seen something of this story, and read about it as well, and IIRC, there was some debate over whether the man had just been closeted before he came out. I think he had some amnesia, so it was debatable if he himself even knew for sure his true orientation before the accident.
I remember there were comments from his family about how he was a very depressed and unhappy man before the accident, and he was much happier and well adjusted after he came out, which suggests that he was closeted before.
I've only read the first five and the last page of this thread, and I do intend to come back and read the rest when I have time. As a gay Trekkie this is clearly a topic of interest to me.
I think a lot of us when we watch Trek imagine what our lives would be like if we lived in Trek's future, and possibly what it would be like to live as a Klingon, or a Vulcan, Andorian, or any other race. Given Trek's lack of inclusion, it's difficult to imagine myself in some of those worlds, because I don't know if there would be a place for me. The novels have done a lot to expand that, and I love them for it - as well as being high entertainment and even inspiration for a better way to live, championing the virtues of Trek.
I'd like to try to make a list of what we know about homosexuality and how it is treated in different worlds. The books are a much more developed source for this. We know that Klingons have same sex marriage without any sign of prejudice from the ENT novels. We know the Andorians have a mandatory version of bisexuality (I LOVE the development of the Andorians in the novels. I already loved them for their exotic looks and complex personalities from the tv shows, but the novels added so much mystique and fascination to them with the exploration of their complicated genders).
We know that T'Prynn was a lesbian Vulcan, but she was pretty private about that. Selar in New Frontier had a hermaphrodite lover, which is non heteronormative, but I'd hesitate to label her as bisexual or any other orientation just based from that - she did have a husband who died previously. Selar has a gay brother, and their father disapproved of him having a partner, because he didn't experience pon farr - pretty much spelling out that Vulcan gay males don't go thru pon farr. I didn't care for that element, as it was pretty much the same thing as homophobia, and I found the logic flawed - surely there are more benefits to having a good marriage than just relief of pon farr, and possibly reproducing. It is in character though for Vulcan fathers of that generation to be rigid and judgemental though.
Ferengi seem to be pretty sexist and homophobic from what we saw, although I think under Rom things would be getting better.
The Trill seem very accepting of sexual diversity, and from Kira's reaction, the Bajorans had no taboo against homosexuality. I loved how accepting Kira was of Jadzia's romance with Lenora.
I do find it curious how some people are so short sighted and applying their own prejudices to alien cultures, such as so many people who are quick to think there wouldn't be gay Klingons. There's absolutely no reason that aliens would have the same prejudices that humans have. I get that some people see gays as weak, and the Klingons are so strong, so they couldn't accept gays. Which is, of course, a flawed argument based on stereotypes. Plenty of Earth societies had traditions of homosexuality among their warriors, and today there are gay cops, soldiers, etc.
Are there any explorations of homosexuality among aliens on Trek that I've missed? I'm not at all sure I believe Cardassians would be homophobic, I don't think their emphasis on family would mean they'd be homophobic. Gays could marry and be valued supporters of their extended families, mentoring their nieces and nephews, which would give those kids an advantage over kids who didn't have gay relatives to mentor them - the straight relatives would be too busy with their own kids to offer the same support. Just an example of how that could work.
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Old June 15 2014, 09:23 AM   #354
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I think this comic illustrates how easily you can portray homosexuality in Star Trek and just make it part of character interaction without making it an "issue".
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Old June 16 2014, 11:49 PM   #355
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Sometimes it's good to make a public "issue" of ideas and concepts. It can be like opening the windows to your house, out with the stale old air and in with the fresh new air.

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Old June 16 2014, 11:59 PM   #356
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Shawnster wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
With a 150 odd species in the federation, Humans would be two-thirds of one percent.




See, thars not how life workd, though. Other factors come into play than just ratio/percentage of this group or that group per populace. Combined, Chinese and Indians are 33% of the Earth's population, yet they do not make up a third of your graduating class or a third of your friends. Currently this is due to geography and that mist Chinese are in China and Indians in India.

This still illustrates that other factors come into play. One ethnic or genetic group might be more disposed for one activity or another. If men and women were truly treated and viewed as equal in all things, there still may be some things that attract more men than women or vice versa.

Some planets may just not send that many being to Starfeet whereas other beings are better suited or more eager for life in space.
I agree with this. I think some planets [or parts of their cultures, for how many planets would indeed be monocultural?] would tend more toward pacifism and finance, for example; others toward science [like Vulcan] and others toward exploration with an eye toward conquest [Klingons].

As for Klingons not being gay because they're warriors/hypermasculine, I dare you to say that to an ancient Spartan or Athenian. Today's military has many gays who excel in the service; my best friend is one who had to remain tightly closeted for 23 years.
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Old June 17 2014, 12:05 AM   #357
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

And I have to say I am tired, tired, tired of seeing white American types all over the books and movies of Trek. In JJ Abrams' favor, he had a goodly number of POC and women in the backgrounds, at least on the Bridge. I really would like to have seen a South Asian in the role of Khan, but I guess Mr. Magic Surprise Box Abrams thought that would be a dead giveaway as to who he really was. Ugh.

As to sex, I think most Earthers would feel much freer by then to explore the spectrum of sexuality. People would be homo- hetero- bi- and pansexual, depending on the number of sexes discovered. Some things are beyond my ken, but I like to try to imagine that there are things that are.
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Old June 22 2014, 11:38 PM   #358
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

The Overlord wrote: View Post
I doubt the Cardassian Union would tolerate homosexuals, their society seems to be obsessed with preserving nuclear families and they don't have much time for orphans, so it seems there would be no place for homosexuals in their society. Likewise the Romulan Empire seems to perform a sort of eugenics program, with a Romulan officer saying they dispose of any children with any physical problems (like blindness) from birth, that doesn't seem like the kind of place that would tolerate homosexuals.
Ancient Sparta is notorious for killing infants particularily male infants who had any sort of physical handicap, yet homosexuality was common place. This was because boy's were taken from their faimilies at the age of 7, to begin their training as soilders which for the first 9 years consisted mostly of just surviving the wilderness alone with a small band of boys your same age with little more then the clothes on your back. By the time they reached adulthood and they were ready to marry, the girls they were usualy arranged to marry, would shave their heads and where a man's toga on their wedding night, so they would resemble young men, because the Spartan soilders had endured of childhood of only being comforted by man and it was easier for them to get intimate with their new wives this way, but I digress.

The point I was trying to make is that someitmes contradictory ideas co-exist in real culures it'd be impossible then to specutulate on alien culures. In my own mental cannon I always saw the Romulans as taking the Greko-Roman approach, a Romulan of high-standing was expected to marry in order to perpatuate his/her line, but if they got along like cats and dogs, behind closed doors and wanted to take a same sex lover, it would be willfuly ignored by their peers. :P
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Old June 24 2014, 03:35 AM   #359
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I think it's a fallacy to assume that alien cultures would have the same prejudices against homosexuality that Earth does. We've already seen other ways their cultures are surprisingly different, such as women being the leaders in the sciences on Cardassia.
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Old June 24 2014, 06:21 PM   #360
T'Girl
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Along the same line, what acceptance we've achieved to date in our present day cultures wouldn't automatically be present in future alien societies (or even all Human societies/worlds).

They could be equal to our own acceptance of gays, futher advanced or centuries behind us while at the same time having a technological society that include interstellar travel (warp drive) and all the other "goodies" shown on the show.

Not all aspects of a society would necessarily move at the same rate.

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