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Old February 19 2014, 03:48 AM   #226
HaventGotALife
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
There are different kinds of love, erotic love is only one and they can be interrelated. But you can't expect a person to want to make love to somebody they don't find attractive even if they love them.

I don't think homosexuality is an abnormality but you have to think even in an enlightened world some who are gay would prefer to be straight. And I must pose the question, can a culture where embracing one's gender identity is sacrosanct, could you judge a person for wanting to do this any more than you can judge a person who surgically changes their gender?

It's also possible in the 24th century would want to become homosexual so they can be attracted to a person of the same gender they love as a person.
Whoa, Nelly. You cannot expect to make love to someone you don't find attractive, even if you love them? What about a person that is horribly disfigured in a car accident or has a mastectomy? Do you dump your wife if she becomes too fat? How about too old? That's not very strong love.

There are transwomen who are married to a woman as a man, and then transition where they stay with the partner. In fact, one of my favorite movies is about exactly that--Normal.
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Old February 19 2014, 03:48 AM   #227
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Choosing to do it yourself is far different from having it imposed upon you.
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Old February 19 2014, 03:49 AM   #228
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I understand that. What I don't understand is the argument, raised by Nightdiamond (and others in other threads) is that Beverly is expressing a 24th century belief that orientation is somehow unenlightened or regressive.
Yeah, one's orientation is neither enlightened or unenlightened. It is simply biology. Beverly was physically attracted to the trill male, but that same physical attraction was lacking for the female trill. It happens. There's nothing inherently wrong in it.
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Old February 19 2014, 03:58 AM   #229
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I understand that. What I don't understand is the argument, raised by Nightdiamond (and others in other threads) is that Beverly is expressing a 24th century belief that orientation is somehow unenlightened or regressive.
Beverly's just expressing her OWN belief: she likes guys, and not girls. Also she is uncomfortable with her lover constantly changing bodies. Neither of these is evidence of prejudice, that I can see - just trying to let Kareel off as easy as possible so as not to hurt her feelings.

Sexuality might become more variable in general, as the centuries go on, but there will always be preferences. People will have likes and dislikes. There are certain things people won't do, certain kinds of other people they won't be attracted to. This will never change. Not everybody will like everybody and everything. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. All that matters is how they express it, and Beverly was trying to be as nice as possible.

To bring up a real world example: For a given couple who've been married to each other for a long time, and then one of them decides they want to be a different gender, what's the other person supposed to do about it? If they decide they can't handle the situation, and they can't stay married to the other person (which is their right), that is not in itself a prejudiced or hateful thing. It's all in how they decide to approach their partner about it.
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Old February 19 2014, 05:14 AM   #230
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

It's been forever since I've seen the episode, but if I'm remembering correctly, while I don't fault Beverly for her decision per se, it does seem like a moment where Trek had the opportunity to be a bit more progressive and fumbled the ball.
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Old February 19 2014, 05:16 AM   #231
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

^ I hate to sound harsh, but I think having Beverly go along with Kareel would have been taking the easy way out. Bev had the courage NOT to feel she had to keep up the relationship simply because it was still (technically) Odan. And, as I said, Beverly was as considerate of Kareel Odan's feelings as it was possible to be. It's not like Bev said "Ewww, go away", after all.
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Old February 19 2014, 06:44 AM   #232
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

galad2003 wrote: View Post
If someone is born gay and it is not a choice then wouldn't that mean it is a genetic or chemical abnormality? If, like someone said above, it is due to hormones while in the womb then wouldn't 24th century technology be able to fix that?

I'm not trying to be offensive but it seems to me if the doctor did his checkup on the mother and saw the hormones were out of whack in the mothers' uterus he could just pull out the hypo spray or whatever and viola, hormone level fixed.

Would 24th century society view it as something that needed to be 'cured?' Is being gay like having blue versus brown eyes or something like having cerebral palsy? The former obviously there is nothing wrong either way, the latter you would of course want to "fix" your baby to make him/her normal.

So there is a real chance that homosexuality would not even exist and have been "cured" in the 24th century.

Disclaimer: Not trying to be offensive just bringing up something to think about/discuss. If I have been offensive please let me know why/how.
There was an article on the BBC News website just yesterday about homosexuality and how it fits in with Darwinism. Over the last couple of decades scientists have started to see homosexuality as something that is written into our genes, so it is as much part of who I am as is the colour of my eyes. By the 24th century, genetic manipulation is illegal except in the case of severe birth defects, and since homosexuality isn't one then the parents can look forward to a healthy baby.
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Old February 19 2014, 06:48 AM   #233
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I hate to sound harsh, but I think having Beverly go along with Kareel would have been taking the easy way out. Bev had the courage NOT to feel she had to keep up the relationship simply because it was still (technically) Odan. And, as I said, Beverly was as considerate of Kareel Odan's feelings as it was possible to be. It's not like Bev said "Ewww, go away", after all.
Maybe in-universe, but certainly not out-of-universe.

Additionally, if she had gone along with it then I think they would have had to follow up on it at some point.
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Old February 19 2014, 11:12 AM   #234
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

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But being atypical does not automatically lead to a 'coming out' experience. Is there a 'coming out' for people who are left handed? Or for people who like weird food combinations?

I haven't had a tv connection in my house for several years. Last year, when our washing machine broke down, my wife and I did the laundry by hand for several months just to see what it was like (not because we couldn't afford a new one). We experimented once with living without a refridgerator, too. That's all certainly atypical in this particular age, and it's come up in various conversations every now and then, but I've never had any conversation that felt like 'coming out'.
Being left-handed is a bad analogy. This is more like picking a major in college. "Dad, I want to be a scientist and that's what I'm going to school for." This isn't that you pick up a pen, without thinking, and writing. It's "Dad, I love Joe. I want to be with him for the rest of my life." And your parents, depending on who they are, will either support you or not. Same thing with a major in college.
Maybe so, but we're still not talking about 'coming out' experiences. Coming out implies you were hiding, which implies that either you or others were ashamed/might be ashamed of this particular trait.

I can see in a few cases how it might nominally apply to the son of a famous doctor refusing to go to medical school, for instance, but in the vast majority of cases, when someone picks a major, they just say 'Dad, I'm going to study biology," and that's that. Whether Dad tries to argue or not, it still doesn't suddenly transform into a 'coming out'. There is no hiding, and no coming out. The same is true for just about every other subject I can think of off the top of my head, except for homosexuality and poverty and perhaps certain types of religion. And everything I can think of about the Federation tells me that those sort of things are not at all to be ashamed of in the future, which for me says that 'coming out' as a cultural phenomenon does not exist in the 24th century.

Yes, parents may still have expectations of their children and will in many cases continue to be disappointed when their children make other choices, but that is not at all the same thing. That is a universal hazard of parenting that has always affected everyone, regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation.
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Old February 19 2014, 03:55 PM   #235
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I disagree that coming out implies hiding. I wear a pride bracelet pretty much all the time, so I believe it's safe to say I'm not hiding, but at the same time that's not the same as explicitly telling anyone my orientation. To my mind coming out involves removing any element of uncertainty regarding the situation.

I haven't come out to my coworkers, but I'm not ashamed of my homosexuality, and I really don't care whether they'd be "ashamed" of it.

I imagine there might be multiple cases where students aren't honest with their parents about what they're studying, and at some point they do need to "come out" about it.

I don't know why you're limiting it to parents either. There's extended family, friends, coworkers, potential mates, teachers ...anyone for whom it's important to you that they know that you're not heterosexual.

Coming out isn't about being ashamed about anything; it's about wanting people to know who you are. You don't ultimately come out for other people; you do it for yourself.

I tell people I'm Jewish because if I don't, people tend to assume otherwise. I tell people I'm gay for the same reason. I want people to know who I am rather than operating under false assumptions about things that matter to me.
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Old February 20 2014, 08:39 AM   #236
grendelsbayne
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

DonIago wrote: View Post
I haven't come out to my coworkers, but I'm not ashamed of my homosexuality, and I really don't care whether they'd be "ashamed" of it.

I imagine there might be multiple cases where students aren't honest with their parents about what they're studying, and at some point they do need to "come out" about it.

I don't know why you're limiting it to parents either. There's extended family, friends, coworkers, potential mates, teachers ...anyone for whom it's important to you that they know that you're not heterosexual.
I'm not limiting it to parents, just following the conversation which had already focused on parents.

Coming out isn't about being ashamed about anything; it's about wanting people to know who you are. You don't ultimately come out for other people; you do it for yourself.

I tell people I'm Jewish because if I don't, people tend to assume otherwise. I tell people I'm gay for the same reason. I want people to know who I am rather than operating under false assumptions about things that matter to me.
Would you say that telling people you're Jewish is 'coming out'? Because that doesn't seem at all accurate to me, unless perhaps the person you tell or the society you live in is wildly anti-semitic.

This is the big difference to me: You can tell people you're Gay because you don't want them to assume otherwise. But you can also tell them you're a country music fan, a star trek fan, a lawyer, a democrat or just about anything else because you don't want them to assume otherwise. I wouldn't characterize any of those conversations as 'coming out' unless there is some kind of serious negative social pressure involved. Pressure that shouldn't exist in the Federation.
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Old February 20 2014, 08:49 AM   #237
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Well, being gay is biological. It's different than saying you're a country music fan, or a lawyer, for that reason. It is a part of your core identity. It is a part of you, and there's a fear that someone will reject your being gay, and by doing so, reject a part of you. I mean, you might like country music now, but hate it later. You may be a lawyer now but, later on, start your own computer repair business instead. Being gay means you were gay, are gay, and will continue to be gay for the rest of your life. That is why "coming out" is such an event for some, and it's rare enough that it may draw attention, because let's face it, even in an enlightened 24th century future, there are always going to be assholes, and you won't know who they are until they find out you're someone they don't like.
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Old February 20 2014, 09:31 AM   #238
grendelsbayne
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

That's fair enough, but if we're talking about assholes making fun of people for who they are, then all that means is that in the 24th century, gay people are still in exactly the same position as everyone else - where the occassional asshole may go after them for being gay/physically handicapped/less intelligent/more intelligent/foreign/alien/red headed/fat/skinny/big nosed/idealistic/cynical/etc, etc, etc.

As long as society itself does not tolerate such assholes, as the Federation clearly should not, they should be relatively few and far between, especially in comparison to our time. Which still adds up to Gays in the 24th century not facing the kind of negative social pressure that produces a 'coming out' experience.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:57 AM   #239
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
As long as society itself does not tolerate such assholes, as the Federation clearly should not ...
Switching intolerance to a different group of people is not the answer.

,Gays in the 24th century not facing the kind of negative social pressure that produces a 'coming out' experience.
If gays are still ostracized and considered "abnormal" in the Trek future, this could explain why we see no evidence of us in the show.

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Old February 20 2014, 11:39 AM   #240
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If gays are still ostracized and considered "abnormal" in the Trek future, this could explain why we see no evidence of us in the show.
This view represents catch 22 again--both inside the Trek universe and outside.
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