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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old February 12 2014, 12:24 AM   #106
iguana_tonante
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Well, in defense of creationists, Darwinists don't have a very good explanation for why we would've climbed down from the trees, other than we realized that living in a tree really sucks when you get down to it.
I'm not entirely sure you understand evolution.
I'm not entirely sure gturner is serious about anything he writes.
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Old February 12 2014, 12:28 AM   #107
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

N-121973 wrote: View Post

We've all heard of Occam's Razor, aka Murphy's Law . . .
Two different principles. Murphy's Law states (somewhat facetiously) that anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
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Old February 12 2014, 12:42 AM   #108
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Well, in defense of creationists, Darwinists don't have a very good explanation for why we would've climbed down from the trees, other than we realized that living in a tree really sucks when you get down to it.
I'm not entirely sure you understand evolution.
I'm not entirely sure gturner is serious about anything he writes.
The climate changed significantly at some point and the thick forests they had lived in previously slowly dried up and thinned out and eventually turned into savanna and desert. The trees going away is a pretty good reason to stop living in them.

Handy thing that geologic record.
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Old February 12 2014, 12:52 AM   #109
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Months ago I asked the question, why is it an "either or" debate at all? Why can't evolution be seen as one of God's many tools?
Because evolution doesn't need God and why would an all powerful God need evolution.
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Old February 12 2014, 12:54 AM   #110
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kinda the thing. Religion and philosophy is supposed to answer the WHY, not the HOW.
Science can answer why and the answer is THERE IS NO WHY. Stuff happens.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:08 AM   #111
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yminale wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kinda the thing. Religion and philosophy is supposed to answer the WHY, not the HOW.
Science can answer why and the answer is THERE IS NO WHY. Stuff happens.
This is not what science says.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:12 AM   #112
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kinda the thing. Religion and philosophy is supposed to answer the WHY, not the HOW.
Science can answer why and the answer is THERE IS NO WHY. Stuff happens.
This is not what science says.
Well, so far, science says there is no why necessary for stuff to happen.
So why would we assume there is?
Just to feel better about ourselves is the most likely answer to that why at least.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:14 AM   #113
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post

Science can answer why and the answer is THERE IS NO WHY. Stuff happens.
This is not what science says.
Well, so far, science says at least there is no why necessary for stuff to happen.
So why would we assume there is?
Just to feel better about ourselves is the most likely answer to that why at least.
Actually, what science says so far is that natural phenomena seem to obey natural laws. As best that science can tell, any why that there is is to be found in the form of natural laws. So, the idea that there is no why is pretty much dead wrong.

In other words, I reject this restriction that natural laws provide only the answer to the question of how. Natural laws answer what, when, where, to whom; they answer all sorts of questions besides just how.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:18 AM   #114
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

This is not what science says.
Well, so far, science says at least there is no why necessary for stuff to happen.
So why would we assume there is?
Just to feel better about ourselves is the most likely answer to that why at least.
Actually, what science says so far is that natural phenomena seem to obey natural laws. As best that science can tell, any why that there is is to be found in the form of natural laws. So, the idea that there is no why is pretty much dead wrong.
Yeah, though I suspect most people asking for the why mean that as in "the grand scheme of things and purpose/intend" and not as in "the mechanism behind it".
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Old February 12 2014, 01:22 AM   #115
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Actually, what science says so far is that natural phenomena seem to obey natural laws.
Science hasn't said that since the 19th century. What Science said is that all events have a probability and what you call "natural laws" are descriptions of high probability events.


As best that science can tell, any why that there is is to be found in the form of natural laws. So, the idea that there is no why is pretty much dead wrong.
Assuming I accept your outdated notion of science, how is having "natural laws" have anything to do with "why". You aren't going to state some old fashioned deist arguments.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:25 AM   #116
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
Yeah, though I suspect most people asking for the why mean that as in "the grand scheme of things and purpose/intend" and not as in "the mechanism behind it".
Having a creator implies that the universe has a purpose BUT the universe doesn't need a creator therefore it doesn't need a purpose.
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Old February 12 2014, 02:04 AM   #117
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yminale wrote: View Post
Albertese wrote: View Post
To address these numbered points:
You wrote a very long post stating that 1.) we shouldn't take the Bible literally and 2.) the Bible isn't perfect. Well DUH! The point is the more you think about science and read the actual history of the Bible, the less the theistic world view makes sense.
Sorta...

I also wrote a long post that was trying to say "Don't be a dick."

--Alex
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Old February 12 2014, 02:11 AM   #118
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Albertese wrote: View Post
Sorta...

I also wrote a long post that was trying to say "Don't be a dick."

--Alex
Oh you mean the part that accused me of ignorance while stating shopworn apologetic arguments that they teach to third graders.

Guess what. Everything I stated is stuff you learn in the first year of seminary or any credible theology course. Rabbis in the time of Jesus were debating the inconsistencies in Genesis. In the end, people will make up silly arguments to support their delusion, I mean faith.
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Old February 12 2014, 02:22 AM   #119
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yminale wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Actually, what science says so far is that natural phenomena seem to obey natural laws.
Science hasn't said that since the 19th century. What Science said is that all events have a probability and what you call "natural laws" are descriptions of high probability events.
That's false.

I suppose you're going to try to argue that quantum theory only asserts probabilities for why things happen. Well, that may be for events on the atomic scale, but how those probabilities are calculated themselves constitute natural laws, in the sense that all the evidence indicates that natural phenomena obey those statistics.

There are three important objections to the notion that physical theories must abandon determinism. The first is that Bohm provided a completely deterministic field theory that is mathematically equivalent to quantum mechanics, whose primary aesthetic shortcoming is that it isn't a local field theory. The second is that there is still no unified theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics. The third is that, in his effort to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity, Everett's relative state formulation also provided a mathematically equivalent formulation of standard quantum mechanics, simply in terms of a field theory exactly satisfying a system of differential equations. In other words, the so-called many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is, at least mathematically, a fully deterministic field theory.

The notion that there are no deterministic field theories accepted in the 21st century even by just conservative standards is patently false, on account of the fact general relativity is still considered valid for certain types of phenomena. Any argument that general relativity is less legitimate than quantum mechanics can be reversed to argue that quantum mechanics is less legitimate than general relativity, because neither theory offers an all-encompassing picture of physical reality. The truth is that neither theory is complete. Bleeding edge work such as that by Hawking is still only hypothetical and far from generally accepted.

As best that science can tell, any why that there is is to be found in the form of natural laws. So, the idea that there is no why is pretty much dead wrong.
Assuming I accept your outdated notion of science, how is having "natural laws" have anything to do with "why". You aren't going to state some old fashioned deist arguments.
The better question is why anyone should allow the term why to be hijacked to have only senses such as "for what moral reason".

If I were to ask whether you could say why the tides go in an out without ever a miscommunication between them, would you answer that it's largely because of the moon's gravity, or would you pedantically nitpick the question?
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Last edited by CorporalCaptain; February 12 2014 at 07:17 AM. Reason: struck some text that was irrelevant to the main point
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Old February 12 2014, 04:17 AM   #120
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The notion that there are no deterministic field theories accepted in the 21st century even by just conservative standards is patently false, on account of the fact general relativity is still considered valid for certain types of phenomena.
Deterministic formulas like general relativity exist because mathematically their results are close enough to a result of a probability base formulation (Which we don't have yet) but a Grand Unified theory will be by the nature of quantum physics be a probabilistic model. The simple fact is that no event can have a predetermined probability of 100% or 0% therefore the universe can not be deterministic in nature.


The better question is why anyone should allow the term why to be hijacked to have only senses such as "for what moral reason".
What makes you think "why" should have any association with morals. George Carlin believed the Universe existed to create plastic. The question of "why" is imposed by humans who want to impose their own views on the Universe.


If I were to ask whether you could say why the tides go in an out without ever a miscommunication between them, would you answer that it's largely because of the moon's gravity, or would you pedantically nitpick the question?
Gravity explains HOW the tides function not why. Asking why tides exist (the purpose) is pointless because they are a natural phenomenon that simply happen because of circumstance.
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