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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old March 9 2014, 05:32 PM   #181
gturner
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

HSLDA link:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects.

<snip>

Another important finding of Strengths of Their Own was that the race of the student does not make any difference. There was no significant difference between minority and white homeschooled students. For example, in grades K-12, both white and minority students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile. In math, whites scored in the 82nd percentile while minorities scored in the 77th percentile. In the public schools, however, there is a sharp contrast. White public school eighth grade students, nationally scored the 58th percentile in math and the 57th percentile in reading. Black eighth grade students, on the other hand, scored on the average at the 24th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading. Hispanics scored at the 29th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading.
and from Huffpo:

More than 2 million U.S. students in grades K-12 were home-schooled in 2010, accounting for nearly four percent of all school-aged children, according to the National Home Education Research Institute. Studies suggest that those who go on to college will outperform their peers.

Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.

They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, an author and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
and another link says:

The National Home Education Research Institute reports that children who are educated at home typically score 15 to 30% higher than public school students on standardized academic achievement tests. This is true of students who are taught by parents with or without a formal education, and students whose parents fall within a wide range of income brackets. In other words, a parent's education and financial standing have no bearing on a homeschooled students ability to score higher on standardized tests than children who attend a public school.

Homeschooled students also score in the above average range on their SATs and ACTs, says NHERI, which are important tests that colleges and universities consider for admissions. Because of this, home-educated children are being recruited by many colleges and universities. In fact, homeschooling has become so popular that many institutes of higher education have a tab on their websites dedicated specifically to homeschoolers who wish to apply for admittance into their schools.

A study conducted by Michael Cogan of the University of St. Thomas revealed that homeschooled students graduated college at a rate of 66.7%, which is almost 10% higher than students who came from a traditional public high school. The study also showed that homeschooled students consistently earned a higher GPA than the other students enrolled in the college.
A few more numbers at statisticsBrain

The average SAT score home schooled students is 1083. Bill Clinton scored a 1032.
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Old March 9 2014, 08:19 PM   #182
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

I do kind of wish the college entrance exams were standardized across the board. I never took the SATs because most colleges in Illinois don't accept them. We take the ACTs, where the highest score is a 36, so I never know what SAT scores even mean.
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Old March 10 2014, 12:19 PM   #183
Stoo
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

I'm happy to believe that homeschooling can work out, and I know it's not all religious crazies. I can see the attraction of a system that removes bullies and disruptive pupils, in particular.

But you need a reliable grasp of the socioecomic factors before making a useful comparison. I get the impression it's a rather white middle class pursuit, and if so can't be compared to the entire spectrum of public education. While I could be wrong, regarding those surveys gturner posted, I stumbled across an interesting post. There are some question marks over how reliable the numbers are.

(this is from someone homeschooled herself).

The HSLDA/NHERI numbers on homeschooling are like stumbling around on that Lego-strewn carpet. Aside from the aforementioned homeschool graduate survey, they also have test scores that they trot out to prove that homeschoolers do better on standardized tests than other students.

Except that the numbers don’t show that. What they actually show is the results of those homeschooled children whose parents not only use achievement tests (which isn’t all of them), who were aware of the NHERI survey (again, not all of them), and who agreed to submit their children’s scores for a study that they were already told was intended to make homeschooling look good. We have no idea how representative that group is of homeschoolers as a whole because it was self-selected and we don’t know whether that self-selected group in any way mirrors homeschoolers as a whole.

The modern homeschool movement is more than 30 years old and we still don’t have a good idea of homeschooling demographics. We know that they’re predominantly white and might be mostly religious (but even the religious makeup is hard to guess because the religious and the secular homeschoolers seldom run in the same circles). We don’t know what the socioeconomic makeup of the homeschool population is, and we don’t know the average education level of parents or a breakdown of those parents’ degrees. Without that, we can only guess at whether the socioeconomic levels of homeschoolers in NHERI’s test score data in any way represent homeschoolers as a whole.
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Old March 11 2014, 02:13 AM   #184
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."
I generally agree. However, and to paraphrase the movie Contact, for people to dismiss more than 1/2 of the earth's population belief in a deity as some sort of delusional behavior is insulting.

I'll give them the fig leaf of the big bang being started by god if they accept the science of evolution and natural selection as a reasonable compromise.

Atheists get it wrong IMO when they because as dogmatic as some conservative religious people do with their beliefs or lack there of.
I like this way of viewing things. What's the big deal if someone believes in a god if it doesn't interfere with scientific research?
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Old March 11 2014, 02:02 PM   #185
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

gturner wrote: View Post
HSLDA link:

The average SAT score home schooled students is 1083. Bill Clinton scored a 1032.
gturner I think it's intuitive to believe that children who are home school outperform those who attend public schools.

If you have a parent invested enough in their child's education as to spend 5-6 hours / day in their education it's also likely that the child lives in a very overall stable environment.

Ask any public school teacher primarily what are the problems with large an often inner city schools. Many parents are either too busy trying to earn a living and/or disinterested in their child's education which translates into poor performance in school.

Ergo -- it's not a failure of the public schools that performances lag but rather often parents who simply don't give a shit about their child's education.
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Old March 11 2014, 02:22 PM   #186
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
HSLDA link:

The average SAT score home schooled students is 1083. Bill Clinton scored a 1032.
gturner I think it's intuitive to believe that children who are home school outperform those who attend public schools.
It's intuitive to believe it. That doesn't mean it's true.

If you have a parent invested enough in their child's education as to spend 5-6 hours / day in their education it's also likely that the child lives in a very overall stable environment.
That can generally be taken to be true, however just because a parent wants to homeschool their children, it does not mean they are qualified to do so or that the curriculum they provide is adequate.

Ask any public school teacher primarily what are the problems with large an often inner city schools. Many parents are either too busy trying to earn a living and/or disinterested in their child's education which translates into poor performance in school.
Inner city schools have their problems, to be sure, but it's worth noting that poor high school graduation rates (as good a barometer as anything, I suppose) are predominantly a rural Southern problem.

Teachers do blame parents and economic circumstances, however one of the unspoken facts of our education system is that wealthier districts attract the best teachers. Those remaining in poorer areas aren't going to be the best and brightest--they may not even be adequate. In other words, those who need the most help are being taught by people not qualified (perhaps not even able) to provide it.

As an example, my son has some issues that led to him getting an IEP when he lived in Indiana. The school there was rural and it was a working class area. They simply didn't have the resources to help him, though they tried.

Now, he lives in New Jersey, where there's a whole host of services available, and he's made much better progress. He's lucky that he was able to relocate. Many are not so fortunate.

Ergo -- it's not a failure of the public schools that performances lag but rather often parents who simply don't give a shit about their child's education.
What this really is about is a failure of money. When people talk about how much we spend on public education, there's often an assumption that the dollars per student are spread around equally. This is not at all the case. Wealthy districts spend a lot more per student than poorer ones, and that affects everything from the qualifications of the teachers to the available equipment to the maintenance level of the building to the quality of the lunch food, to say nothing of what special services might be available for those children most in need. So long as schools are funded primarily with local property tax income, this will remain the case. No one is willing to do much about that since it amounts to wealth redistribution. Instead, it's easier to blame teachers' unions and uninvolved parents.

It's also not necessarily a given that public schools in the US are a walking disaster. In fact, it may be the single most destructive falsehood plaguing our education system.
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Old March 11 2014, 03:08 PM   #187
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

^^^ The notable exception to districts that are poorer is D.C. Where average per pupil spending is over $30K/student yet academic performance and graduation rates still lag school districts with much less/student
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Old March 11 2014, 03:13 PM   #188
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DC is pretty much a notable exception to everything so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.
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Old March 11 2014, 03:16 PM   #189
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
DC is pretty much a notable exception to everything so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.
Money not necessarily equal to student performance. In speaking with several teachers over the years - I've heard anecdotally parental involvement is as much if not more important than how many $$ they pour into a school system.

Last edited by DarthTom; March 11 2014 at 03:31 PM.
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Old March 11 2014, 03:28 PM   #190
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
DC is pretty much a notable exception to everything so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.
Money not necessarily equal to student performance. In speaking with several teachers over the years - I've heard anecdotally parental involvement is as much if not more important than how many $$ they pour int a school system.
Of course, parental involvement is itself generally a factor of money, so once again your point makes no sense.
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Old March 11 2014, 04:42 PM   #191
DarthTom
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Of course, parental involvement is itself generally a factor of money, so once again your point makes no sense.
Is there a direct correlation statistically with income and school performance? To lazy to look it up now.
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Old March 11 2014, 04:56 PM   #192
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Of course, parental involvement is itself generally a factor of money, so once again your point makes no sense.
Is there a direct correlation statistically with income and school performance? To lazy to look it up now.
In a word: Yes.

The achievement gap between children from high- and low-income families is roughly 30 to 40 percent larger among children born in 2001 than among those born twenty-five years earlier. In fact, it appears that the income achievement gap has been growing for at least fifty years, though the data are less certain for cohorts of children born before 1970. In this chapter, I describe and discuss these trends in some detail. In addition to the key finding that the income achievement gap appears to have widened substantially, there are a number of other important findings.
Americans tend to underestimate the rather tight linkage between issues of geography, family income, educational attainment, and your own future income and mobility. In essence, if you come from a poor family in a poor area and attend school in a poor district, the deck is stacked overwhelmingly against you. Your odds of high educational attainment are very low. Now, maybe you're lucky. Maybe you were born with an unusually high intelligence, and maybe one of your teachers in that poor school noticed it and fought to get you more resources so you could live up to your potential, and so maybe you'll get good grades because you have a supportive environment at home and at school and eventually win scholarships to a prestigious university which lead you down a path to a PhD and a lofty position making over $100K a year as a top researcher.

But most people are not that lucky. Most kids in such a situation will just grind through the school system with parents too poor, too overworked, and too uneducated themselves to be much help. The average student--being average--will probably face indifferent teachers and limited prospects. Poor educational attainment and job and wage insecurity will be constant problems for many.

Contrast this with being, say, a rather average child of a wealthier family. Though you may not be very smart, they can get you tutors, and you're already going to a better school, and if your family is wealthy they are probably connected, too. They can pull some strings and get you in where Mom or Dad went to college, and they're paying your way, too. So, this average person ends up achieving much more highly than they would have otherwise, due to the advantages of their birth.

The answer is not, I think, to begrudge those advantages, but to recognize that they exist and do our best to offer similar advantages to those who weren't simply born into them. There are actually two big sides to that: first, have a social infrastructure in place where the parents can actually be more available and attentive, where they don't have to work multiple jobs just to scrape by; second, fund underperforming schools better and put more effort toward attracting better quality talent. Instead of focusing on either of those, we've denigrated them. People who take government handouts are leeches, and teachers are selfish miscreants who unionized to suck taxpayer coffers dry and give no shits about the children they (supposedly) fail over and over to educate. These memes are incredibly damaging and do no favors to improving any of this. They're really just a form of class warfare waged by the wealthy against the poor and working class.

Essentially, Americans like to believe we live in a nearly-pure meritocracy, when the reality is that most of what you will be able to accomplish in life comes down to luck, particularly what sort of parents you happened to be born to, and what their circumstances were like during the course of your childhood.
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Old March 12 2014, 07:04 AM   #193
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
^^^ The notable exception to districts that are poorer is D.C. Where average per pupil spending is over $30K/student yet academic performance and graduation rates still lag school districts with much less/student
DC doesn't actually spend $30k per student. A lot of that money is wasted or stolen through fraud. Also of note DC like most urban schools has more students with learning disabilities, single parent households, qualify for free lunch programs. What people don't understand is that poor kids are more expensive to educate because they have so many disadvantages.
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Old March 12 2014, 07:07 AM   #194
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

One more thing, special education is hugely expensive. It can take up to half a school district's budget. In New York it's mandated so arts, sports, and gifted program often get cut.
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Old March 13 2014, 02:05 AM   #195
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/1...ly-15-seconds/

Accidentally.
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