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Old March 6 2014, 01:15 PM   #151
Venardhi
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

T'Girl wrote: View Post
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This is why we need to support public education.
Public financing of education is a good idea, but it should be tied to a educational voucher system so the parents of a schoolchild would have control of which public or private (or home) school their child attends.

It would give the family more control over the curriculum provided.

Fuck that.

Children should be protected from the ignorance of their parents.
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Old March 6 2014, 02:04 PM   #152
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

T'Girl wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
This is why we need to support public education.
Public financing of education is a good idea, but it should be tied to a educational voucher system so the parents of a schoolchild would have control of which public or private (or home) school their child attends.

It would give the family more control over the curriculum provided.

Parents should have a say in which school their child attends, agreed.
BUT all schools should adhere to a standard secular curriculum.
If a school is privately run (I include church schools here) they should be free to offer additional classes similar to sunday school or whatever, but shielding the students from real education and teaching religion instead of natural world scence is all kinds of wrong.
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Old March 6 2014, 03:57 PM   #153
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Schools that teach Creationism or Intelligent Design or seek to "teach the controversy" with regard to evolution shouldn't be permitted to exist. If adults want to indulge in that crap, fine, but subjecting children to it is derelict at best and abusive at worst, and the government should not endorse it in any way.
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Old March 6 2014, 07:19 PM   #154
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Schools that teach Creationism or Intelligent Design or seek to "teach the controversy" with regard to evolution shouldn't be permitted to exist. If adults want to indulge in that crap, fine, but subjecting children to it is derelict at best and abusive at worst, and the government should not endorse it in any way.
To play devils advocate - parents can opt their children out of sex ed classes. Would you be opposed to fudi Christians opting their children out of evolution discussions/teaching?

In other words. Should parents be able to limit the scope of their child's education that aligns with their religious beliefs in public schools or at a minimum be permitted to excuse their child from certain types of instruction?
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Old March 6 2014, 07:22 PM   #155
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Schools that teach Creationism or Intelligent Design or seek to "teach the controversy" with regard to evolution shouldn't be permitted to exist. If adults want to indulge in that crap, fine, but subjecting children to it is derelict at best and abusive at worst, and the government should not endorse it in any way.
To play devils advocate - parents can opt their children out of sex ed classes.
They shouldn't be able to do that, either.

Would you be opposed to fudi Christians opting their children out of evolution discussions/teaching?
Yes, absolutely. Children are not the property of their parents.

In other words. Should parents be able to limit the scope of their child's education that aligns with their religious beliefs in public schools or at a minimum be permitted to excuse their child from certain types of instruction?
No. Not at all. Education is information. Education is critical thought. Anyone who is afraid of those things is an enemy of humanity and has no business either raising children or teaching them.
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Old March 6 2014, 07:31 PM   #156
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

^^^

I generally agree with you Robert Maxwell. However, parents I believe do have a lot of flexibility on how to raise their children - short of abuse. I'm not sure the courts would agree with you that not teaching sex ed and/or evolution science raises to the level of child abue.

That said, I think children should have to attend most if not all classes that are required in public schools with the cavet that if fundi parents don't like the public school curriculum they are perfectly welcome to enroll their children in any accredited private Christian school that follows their belief systems.
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Old March 6 2014, 09:23 PM   #157
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Accreditation is apparently overrated or we wouldn't have so many moronic incidents like this one going on: A school conducting a fire-drill "by the book" made a girl stand outside in -25 degree F wind chill while dripping wet in a bathing suit, and wouldn't let her seek shelter or put on clothes because that would mess up the drill. She suffered frostbite, of course. I guess the school officials were wanting to see natural selection in action.

And of course "sex-ed" seems to all to often consist of the sex-ed teacher banging her students in the parking lot.
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Old March 7 2014, 01:53 AM   #158
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

T'Girl wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
This is why we need to support public education.
Public financing of education is a good idea, but it should be tied to a educational voucher system so the parents of a schoolchild would have control of which public or private (or home) school their child attends.

It would give the family more control over the curriculum provided.

Private school is a luxury and you shouldn't get a tax subsidy for choosing it.
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Old March 7 2014, 02:16 AM   #159
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Children are not the property of their parents.
Children are not the property of the state.


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Old March 7 2014, 02:38 AM   #160
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Children are not the property of their parents.
Children are not the property of the state.


Children aren't the property of anyone, however both parents and the state have particular responsibilities to them. A well-rounded education free of religious interference is one such responsibility.
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Old March 7 2014, 07:44 AM   #161
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yes, all children must be educated by the state. The state is all, embodying the will of the volk. All children must be above average and serve the state's needs. By breeding the brightest and strongest children with each other, the state can create better citizens, educating them in the most efficient and effective manner and suppressing contrary thoughts that cause social chaos or produce less efficient future citizens.

I'm guessing that's the logic my cousin followed until he was executed at Nuremberg (making my mom's side of the family very proud of him).

The Obama administration has decided to deport a German family who came to the US so they could home school their children. If we're going to do that, why not deport all the Quakers, Amish, Muslims, Jews, and anyone else who doesn't worship at the altar of mass conformity?
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Old March 7 2014, 07:51 AM   #162
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

gturner wrote: View Post
The Obama administration has decided to deport a German family who came to the US so they could home school their children.
Link?
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Old March 7 2014, 09:40 AM   #163
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
The Obama administration has decided to deport a German family who came to the US so they could home school their children.
Link?
Referring to this story, I guess, but there's nothing to indicate that this was about the Obama administration. It seems a routine immigration issue that appears to have been resolved without deportation. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26454988
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Old March 7 2014, 01:24 PM   #164
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

I'm not sympathetic to people who wish to homeschool whatsoever, since homeschooling is almost exclusively the purview of religious nuts who don't want their kids exposed to reality.

The German family in question was seeking asylum, and the idea that we should grant people asylum because they aren't allowed to homeschool their kids in their native country is pretty laughable. Asylum's for people with real problems.
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Old March 7 2014, 01:46 PM   #165
Gov Kodos
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I'm not sympathetic to people who wish to homeschool whatsoever, since homeschooling is almost exclusively the purview of religious nuts who don't want their kids exposed to reality.

The German family in question was seeking asylum, and the idea that we should grant people asylum because they aren't allowed to homeschool their kids in their native country is pretty laughable. Asylum's for people with real problems.
Homeschooling may be predominantly so, but that is no reason to decry the practice altogether. Also, I can imagine persecution being practiced through schools such as a prejudice against a minority which the minority would counter by teaching at home. American Indians had a long history of cultural oppression done through education. Such, though, would not be the case for this family.

The article says the kids have to go to a recognized school, and Germany has schools tailored to many faiths and preferences. Also, nothing bans their teaching the kids their faith at home, only that they must attend a sanctioned school. I imagine the immigration position amounted to persecution by the German government was not valid, but I would not accept that such conditions cannot exist and that asylum should be available for people facing such persecution.
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