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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old February 8 2014, 01:23 AM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
In addition, we would need to know what is the maximum distance for "real-time communication". We've seen in TOS that there are times that the Enterprise needs to be close enough to establish real-time comm vs sending a message that they have to wait for a reply. (Example, in "Charlie X" the Antares was "barely in range" to communicate with the Enterprise when it was destroyed.)
I think the one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the power of the onboard subspace radio emitters. "Barely in range" could refer to a power problem of the Antares to generate a subspace signal strong enough to reach Enterprise in real time.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
For the TOS Enterprise, 100 parsecs could be traveled in a third of a day.
I won't dispute that, but that subspace communication occurred without any visible or audible delay. In contrast it took the subspace signal approx. 2 hours / 120 minutes / 7,200 seconds just to be received at the nearest command base (i.e. not Starfleet HQ).

Assuming (because of "The Alternative Factor") that it takes a subspace message 1 second to cross 326 light years, the distance between the Enterprise and the nearest command base would have been 2,347,200 light years in "Balance of Terror".

Assuming that Commodore Barstow was evacuating himself, too, and only 108 light years away, the distance in "Balance of Terror" between the TOS Enterprise and the nearest command base would have still been 782,400 light years.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It's pretty likely that "The Enterprise Incident" takes place in an area of space much further away than in "Balance of Terror" and "The Deadly Years".
I start believing these conjectural subspace relays are inevitable to rationalize these delays in communication.

Bob
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Old February 8 2014, 05:18 PM   #17
blssdwlf
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
In addition, we would need to know what is the maximum distance for "real-time communication". We've seen in TOS that there are times that the Enterprise needs to be close enough to establish real-time comm vs sending a message that they have to wait for a reply. (Example, in "Charlie X" the Antares was "barely in range" to communicate with the Enterprise when it was destroyed.)
I think the one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the power of the onboard subspace radio emitters. "Barely in range" could refer to a power problem of the Antares to generate a subspace signal strong enough to reach Enterprise in real time.
Sure we've seen power, distance, subspace conditions affect subspace communications and the local environment affect warp speed.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
For the TOS Enterprise, 100 parsecs could be traveled in a third of a day.
I won't dispute that, but that subspace communication occurred without any visible or audible delay. In contrast it took the subspace signal approx. 2 hours / 120 minutes / 7,200 seconds just to be received at the nearest command base (i.e. not Starfleet HQ).

Assuming (because of "The Alternative Factor") that it takes a subspace message 1 second to cross 326 light years, the distance between the Enterprise and the nearest command base would have been 2,347,200 light years in "Balance of Terror".
However, that's ignoring power, subspace conditions, warp speed conditions and we don't really know the distance either in making that kind of calculation. At best we can guess that in BOT with it's particular conditions that non-real-time communications with Command Base could be at least 160 LY away or at least outside of the sector map.

~700,000c (Fast warp conditions ala "That Which Survives")
divided by ( 365 days * 24 hours ) = ~80 LY / Hr * 2 Hours
= ~160 LY for 2 hours.

In "The Alternative Factor", again we don't know how far away was real-time comms or the space conditions so it could be anywhere from a few LY to hundreds of LY.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It's pretty likely that "The Enterprise Incident" takes place in an area of space much further away than in "Balance of Terror" and "The Deadly Years".
I start believing these conjectural subspace relays are inevitable to rationalize these delays in communication.
In thinking of subspace relays I'd just factor it among subspace conditions. For all we know, all Starfleet ships are also subspace relays and in "The Alternative Factor" there was a string of ships between Kirk's position and Starfleet that was the "real-time network" while in "Balance of Terror" there were no ships in the sector for the Enterprise to have a real-time relay session to use and thus comms traveled at normal subspace speeds.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:47 PM   #18
Dm00221
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

Some pretty interesting points I never considered. A lot to consider. Thanks Everyone.
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Old February 11 2014, 03:50 AM   #19
Albertese
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

...

I start believing these conjectural subspace relays are inevitable to rationalize these delays in communication.

Bob
I'm not sure "conjectural" is right word. We know for canon fact that they were out there. Epsilon 9 appears to be just such a facility. And in TNG, the events of the episode "Aquiel" center on a subspace relay station. And, regardless of how one may or may not feel about Enterprise, wasn't there dialogue regarding dropping subspace relays along their path? I think the canon regarding the presence of Subspace relays is pretty solid and doesn't need to depend upon any conjecture.

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Old February 11 2014, 07:44 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

^^ Sorry, I was thinking entirely in TOS terms and don't recall that a subspace relay had ever been mentioned or hinted.

As blssdlwf pointed out the ships themselves might serve as a subspace communication link, which sounds credible to me.

By the time of TNG and the probable expansion of the Federation to cover a much larger area of space / much larger interstellar distances subspace relay stations look somewhat inevitable, but their Achilles Heel - in contrast to a starship - is their vulnerability.

Bob
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Old February 27 2014, 11:45 AM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

Just a quick addition I just came across from "Heart of Glory" (Enterprise near Neutral Zone):

RIKER: It'll take 48 hours for a message to get to Starfleet on subspace frequency.

Bob
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Old February 27 2014, 06:22 PM   #22
Albertese
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

So, we see from "Balance of Terror" that the NZ is a long narrow stretch. So no doubt the 48 hour claim, was accurate for that particular point of the Zone.

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Old March 11 2014, 02:56 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: Destination Romulus: Travel Time?

If we assume that comm relays are involved, we can also argue that Romulans jam them to varying degrees of success near the RNZ. And if we assume local conditions are to blame, we can again argue that Romulans jamming is a local condition, and the UFP just doesn't realize this; that the RNZ runs along old battle lines where local natural conditions happened to be particularly nasty and contributed to the outcomes of the fights; or that Romulans are not exactly jamming as such, but actually manipulating natural conditions, Diane Duane style, out of sheer nastiness.

But if we enter speculation territory at all, I'd give a lot of weight to the brilliant Okuda/Sternbach TNG TM idea of having subspace communications be instantaneous over a given range and suddenly snail-paced beyond that. The insta-range in the manual is given as 22 lightyears, but that might just be for a Galaxy class transmitter (with quoted amazing output power, possibly greater than for any of the ship's weapons). If the range is shorter for TOS ships, then all the data can be trivially fitted into one and the same model.

That is, minor differences in the location of the ship related to the nearest buoy would give major effects at extreme instantaneous range - and in the frontier, ships might be forced to loiter at this extreme range quite regularly, after which the adventure of the week would immediately take them the crucial few lightdays beyond and, despite the best efforts of the navigator and the communications officer, create these observed delays of a few days. This isn't a result we could easily obtain if instantaneous communications had a range of hundreds or thousands of lightyears without relays.

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