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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 30 2014, 08:45 PM   #1
Dale Sams
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Cause and Effect (??)

So..since the Enterprise lost some 16 days before figuring out how to avoid the collision....are we meant to believe that the Bozeman lost some 100 years because they never figured out how to avoid the collision?

Which means from their perspective, a starship from the future was entering their time period?

So if that's true, then had the Enterprise reversed course (which they should have done. "For all we know, reversing course leads to the accident" is illogical since there would have been no reason to reverse course the first time) the Bozeman never would have entered the anomaly.

My head hurts.

Last edited by Dale Sams; January 30 2014 at 09:16 PM.
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Old January 30 2014, 08:56 PM   #2
od0_ital
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

The Bozeman was there for decades, no tellin' how their loop was workin'.

There's no way for them to know that the Enterprise-D was from their future in the short amount of time between the ship appearin' and their mutual destruction.

That may be why Captain Bateson was kinda aloof - 'til the E-D showed up, there was no definin' event that reset the loop, so maybe they were just livin' the same few days over and over like it was new to them, Groundhog Day style, but without the crazy antics.
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Old January 30 2014, 10:32 PM   #3
Hober Mallow
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

It's best not to even try to make sense of this episode.
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Old January 31 2014, 12:19 AM   #4
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

I'm guessing the Bozeman encountered some kind of phenomenon and entered it (either accidentally or on purpose) that teleported them forward the 70-80 years and into the Enterprise-D.

If they had been stuck in a "time loop" like the Enterprise was during the intervening time I'm sure they would have realized and started trying to put things together/correcting them much the same way the Enterprise crew did.
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Old January 31 2014, 12:26 AM   #5
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

As I understood, the Bozeman jumped forward in time and crashed into the Enterprise, but only the Enterprise was having the deja vu loops.

Either that, or they're all complete idiots not to have figured it out in 70+ years.
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Old January 31 2014, 01:24 AM   #6
JT Perfecthair
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

The only thing they had to do to implement Rikers idea of opening the shuttle bay and letting the air push the ship out of the way was to completely ignore elementary physics.
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Old January 31 2014, 01:32 AM   #7
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Yeah, I really, really doubt (and I think I've done the math on this before) there would be near enough air in the shuttlebay to push the ship out of the way.
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Old January 31 2014, 02:10 PM   #8
The Librarian
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Not to mention that if they had just hit the tractor beam immediately, or done both solutions, they could have avoided the collision. Instead they wasted thirty or forty seconds debating what to do.
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Old January 31 2014, 02:49 PM   #9
Prologic9
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

The Narrative is meant to infer the Bozeman was stuck in the loop for some 100 years.

Reasonably, their loop wouldn't have reset with the collision because ultimately the events still unfolded in real time, and the Ent-D would have had to have also been in the loop for 100 years.

We can speculate that the stability of their loop was much stronger before crossing paths with the Ent-D, explaining why they never realized their predicament. Or perhaps their loop was extremely short, lasting only seconds, and they never had the time to fully process everything.
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Old January 31 2014, 07:04 PM   #10
Tom Riley
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

The wording of the episode to me seemed to imply that it was the destruction of the Enterprise that caused the loop. If that were the case, it would only make sense for the Bozeman to have encountered this temporal anomaly, been sent to the future, hit the Enterprise and then been looped themselves.

Perhaps their loop starts upon entering the anomaly and ends with the collision. That makes the most sense to me because that would provide the same number of times through the loop for them as the Enterprise which keeps everything balanced. If the ships' destruction is what caused them to enter the loop, then it would require both of them for the loops to even start. The interaction between the ships has to be there. If it is indeed the destruction of the ships that started the loops as it suggests, how could the Bozeman be looping if they hadn't yet hit the Enterprise? It would have to all start with the first collision, necessitating the Bozeman to be pulled forward in time to start their loops concurrently with the Enterprise.

At least that's what I took away from the episode. That, yes, the Bozeman was now displaced 70+ years in time, but not that they had 70+ solid years worth of looping.
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Old January 31 2014, 09:12 PM   #11
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

If tyhe Enterprise had changed course, the Boseman would have emerge, hit nothing, and found themselves in the future.

The Boseman "looped" exactly as many times as the Enterprise did. When the Enterprise exploded and reset (how many hours?) the Boseman still being in the area of the explosion also reset the same time period.

I did the math years ago, given the main shuttle bay door size, the general size of the flight deck and assuming the bay was initially at sea level pressure, there would have been enough thrust from the escaping air (combined with the tractor beam) to push the Enterprise out of the immediate path of the Boseman, it was a glancing blow.

Move the Enterprise as fast as seen on screen? That's a different question, but that could have been a matter of camera perspective.

(go seahawks)
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Old February 1 2014, 03:09 AM   #12
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If tyhe Enterprise had changed course, the Boseman would have emerge, hit nothing, and found themselves in the future.

The Boseman "looped" exactly as many times as the Enterprise did. When the Enterprise exploded and reset (how many hours?) the Boseman still being in the area of the explosion also reset the same time period.

I did the math years ago, given the main shuttle bay door size, the general size of the flight deck and assuming the bay was initially at sea level pressure, there would have been enough thrust from the escaping air (combined with the tractor beam) to push the Enterprise out of the immediate path of the Boseman, it was a glancing blow.
The "combined with the tractor beam" is the unknown variable you get toss in there in order to make the process work, though. The thing is the tractor beam was not used decompressing the shuttle bay was done instead of using the tractor beam. And there's not enough air in the main shuttle bay to move the mass of the Enterprise out of the way and certainly not in any meaningful rate to push the ship out of the way in time.

And yeah the "we can't turn back it might be what gets us in trouble" argument doesn't hold up. Considering the first time through the loop they'd have no reason to change course and staying on course is what got them into the predicament. Changing course is the right thing to do.
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Old February 1 2014, 06:11 PM   #13
USS Excelsior
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

I think the Bozeman was in a closed few minute loop for 90 years, which was short enough for them not to realize that they had been there before, and then the ENT-D gets caught into the loop and breaks it.

Although one can speculate as to why the ENT-D contact Starfleet when they realized they were in a loop, and how much time had passed.
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Old February 1 2014, 07:06 PM   #14
Dukhat
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

The Bozeman was caught in a time loop for 80 years. The crew didn't know they were in a time loop all that time because they were doing the exact same thing each time before the reset. The variable was the Enterprise, which wandered into the area of space where the Bozeman's time loop was happening. The Enterprise was then part of the time loop as well, but unlike the Bozeman's crew, experiences for them each time were different, and they were able to figure out the problem. However, I'm not quite sure why avoiding the collision would have brought the Bozeman out of its time loop.
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Old February 1 2014, 07:07 PM   #15
Finn
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Re: Cause and Effect (??)

I decided to rewatch this episode after reading the thread. One thing I always wondered...what if for each loop, someone made it to an escape pod. Given the short period of time between the order and the destruction, it would have to be right there.

Would that mean people would seem to disappear in the newer loops? It wouldn't have been the senior staff as they all were on the bridge since they were in the conference room right before the encounter with the anomaly.

However, they were in the conference room due to the oddities that popped up as result of the loops. That may mean they weren't in the conference room the first time around. I suspect the problems or the changes certain departments mentioned in the first loop we saw were related to the loops.

Beverly wasn't called to sickbay during the poker game. Beverly didn't break the glass since there wouldn't be any voices to spook her. Or was the voices always there?
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