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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 31 2014, 02:30 PM   #16
Stoo
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Limited ammo is a simple way of giving the ship a tougher time surviving, outside the reach and resources of the federation. Which is kind of the point of the show. That does however go against the way replication is depicted as straightforward and easy.

Perhaps a compromise would have been to make up some new kind of improvised torpedo\missile that's less powerful but easier to manufacture. Then save the photons for really critical situations.
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Old January 31 2014, 03:32 PM   #17
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I saw a website at one point which followed the count of living crew members and found that at some time a lot more crew members had been killed than the count had been decremented by.
Now wait a minute, this can't be right. Are you sure they were counting dead crewmembers? Or were they – which I assume – merely counting all crewmembers shown onscreen? The latter would make a little more sense, wouldn't it?
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Old January 31 2014, 03:39 PM   #18
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
It should've been in the series bible the number of shuttlecraft, crew, torpedoes, etc they had, all of which couldn't be replaced without placing severe restrictions on rations and supplies.
It's clear that they originally wanted to do it that way, given the numerous references to shortages and rationing in early episodes; but as I said, the network put a lot of restrictions on them and forced them to do something that was more of a low-continuity TNG clone than they had hoped.
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Old January 31 2014, 03:54 PM   #19
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Christopher wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Not disagreeing with what you are saying Christopher, but shouldn't they have addressed it either verbally or visually within the show. It's like writing something in chapter 3 of a book and ingoring it in chapter 33. Isn't it a bit of disservice to your viewer/reader to contradict something you said earlier without at least addressing why it's no longer an issue?
Oh, I'm not denying there were continuity problems, mainly due to UPN pressuring the producers to minimize continuity. I'm just saying that the ability to manufacture new shuttles or torpedoes should not be hard to rationalize given the existence of replicators. Particularly since "Extreme Risk" actually showed us how they build new shuttles, with the construction of the Delta Flyer.
That's the problem early on they told us time and time again that resources would be an issue. If they couldn't replace torpdeos then surely a much more complex peiece of machinary such as a shuttlecraft couldn't be replaced as well.

If they want to get rid of the resource limit they themselves put in, it's not really asking much for a few lines dropped into an episode to explain why is it?

Otherwise it basically amounts to a wizard did it.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:20 PM   #20
Anwar
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Christopher wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
It should've been in the series bible the number of shuttlecraft, crew, torpedoes, etc they had, all of which couldn't be replaced without placing severe restrictions on rations and supplies.
It's clear that they originally wanted to do it that way, given the numerous references to shortages and rationing in early episodes; but as I said, the network put a lot of restrictions on them and forced them to do something that was more of a low-continuity TNG clone than they had hoped.
The problem was that Michael Piller wanted it this way, a survival based show with arc-storytelling.

Problem was that Jeri Taylor didn't want that at all, she just wanted to do more TNG, and the network backed her over Piller.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:44 PM   #21
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Anwar wrote: View Post
The problem was that Michael Piller wanted it this way, a survival based show with arc-storytelling.

Problem was that Jeri Taylor didn't want that at all, she just wanted to do more TNG, and the network backed her over Piller.
Is this documented anywhere or just speculation on your part?

EDIT: Which reminds me: Does anyone here know a good behind-the-scenes book about the production of Voyager? I'd love to read about the conception and the thoughts behind some creative decisions.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:47 PM   #22
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Anwar wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
It should've been in the series bible the number of shuttlecraft, crew, torpedoes, etc they had, all of which couldn't be replaced without placing severe restrictions on rations and supplies.
It's clear that they originally wanted to do it that way, given the numerous references to shortages and rationing in early episodes; but as I said, the network put a lot of restrictions on them and forced them to do something that was more of a low-continuity TNG clone than they had hoped.
The problem was that Michael Piller wanted it this way, a survival based show with arc-storytelling.

Problem was that Jeri Taylor didn't want that at all, she just wanted to do more TNG, and the network backed her over Piller.
Even though the bare bones of the shows concept makes the former a more logical--and ultimately far more interesting--direction to go. Such a shame, as I think VOY is the Trek series that had lots of potential but just poorly executed.
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Old January 31 2014, 05:23 PM   #23
Christopher
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

MacLeod wrote: View Post
That's the problem early on they told us time and time again that resources would be an issue. If they couldn't replace torpdeos then surely a much more complex peiece of machinary such as a shuttlecraft couldn't be replaced as well.

If they want to get rid of the resource limit they themselves put in, it's not really asking much for a few lines dropped into an episode to explain why is it?
That's what I'm trying to get across here. The network didn't want continuity, so they were required to drop it without explanation. At least, that's what I believe happened. There's certainly plenty of precedent in other cases of network meddling in TV shows.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:05 PM   #24
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

True, networks can love to interfer from time to time. But the premise seemed to lean more towards some form of serialised storytelling. As a writer if you wanted to change something you had established earlier in a book or series of books wouldn't you at least address why/how that thing you established earlier is no longer relevant?
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Old January 31 2014, 06:38 PM   #25
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

MacLeod wrote: View Post
As a writer if you wanted to change something you had established earlier in a book or series of books wouldn't you at least address why/how that thing you established earlier is no longer relevant?
You're still not getting my point. What the writers/producers of a TV show may want to do is one thing. What they are allowed to do is another. The producers of a network television show almost never have full creative control over the show. They are required to conform to the "notes" they receive from their superiors at the studio and the network. So what they want to do is often beside the point. If they wanted to mention the shortages or explain why they no longer existed, that would not matter if the network insisted they just ignore it. Network interference is not "from time to time," it is a constant, everyday reality of television production.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:42 PM   #26
DavidGutierrez
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

MacLeod wrote: View Post
True, networks can love to interfer from time to time. But the premise seemed to lean more towards some form of serialised storytelling. As a writer if you wanted to change something you had established earlier in a book or series of books wouldn't you at least address why/how that thing you established earlier is no longer relevant?
As a writer, of course. But, the show was not run by writers. The writers were told "no, don't worry about that, just move on" and they had to do what they were told.

I would also argue that it was not just the network holding VOY down, but Berman and Braga as well. Ronald D. Moore's swift entry to and exit from VOY is evidence of that, especially given his comments about the writers' room and Braga in particular.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:52 PM   #27
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

It's stupid that torpedos are physical objects in the first place. When I was a kid, I thought they were energy, just like phasers, but more powerful, hence they can't fire a lot of them. This is how it was portrayed by SFX as well. This is how plasma torpedos behave as well. Furthermore, they are called photons (particles of light) not "antimatter torpedos".

If they are physical objects, it begs the question why 50 of these are not unleashed as soon as the battle starts?
To me, the torpedo business creates the biggest inconsistency of them all. That old game Star Fleet Command had it right IMO. Torpedos-phasers-missiles. But that's too much Vulcan logic.


As for the Voyager, they could have just used nuclear missiles.
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Old January 31 2014, 07:00 PM   #28
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

DavidGutierrez wrote: View Post
I would also argue that it was not just the network holding VOY down, but Berman and Braga as well. Ronald D. Moore's swift entry to and exit from VOY is evidence of that, especially given his comments about the writers' room and Braga in particular.
Maybe to an extent, but I think they get blamed for a lot of things that were actually UPN's decisions. For instance, on Enterprise, Berman & Braga didn't want transporters, didn't want the Temporal Cold War, didn't even want the ship to leave Earth until the end of the first season. But the network insisted on something that had more familiar Trekkish elements, and that had time-travel aspects to enable linking it to the future of the franchise.

I think Braga ended up as showrunner because he was willing to work under UPN's rules, to be a team player. But that doesn't mean he would've made the same choices given total freedom. We've seen in later shows he's executive-produced, like Threshold, 24, and Terra Nova, that he has no problem with strongly serialized narratives.


EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
It's stupid that torpedos are physical objects in the first place. When I was a kid, I thought they were energy, just like phasers, but more powerful, hence they can't fire a lot of them. This is how it was portrayed by SFX as well. This is how plasma torpedos behave as well.
But that makes no physical sense. Despite the conceits of fiction, "energy" is not something that has an independent existence. It's a property that things possess. In order to deliver energy from one object to another, there has to be something exchanged. Really, all weapons are energy weapons. Clubs, arrows, knives, cannonballs, and bullets inflict damage by delivering kinetic energy to a target. Bombs and missiles do their damage with chemical energy. Energy is, in effect, the payload of a weapon. There has to be some mechanism to deliver it.


Furthermore, they are called photons (particles of light) not "antimatter torpedos".
They are not called photons, they are called photon torpedoes. According to The Making of Star Trek, photon torpedoes were originally intended to be "energy pods of matter and anti-matter contained and held temporarily separated in a magno-photon force field." Which was often interpreted in fandom to mean that they had no physical casing, that they were pure force field bubbles containing the matter and antimatter, but that doesn't make sense; what was generating the force field? Still, they were always meant to be antimatter weapons, despite the shorthand name.


If they are physical objects, it begs the question why 50 of these are not unleashed as soon as the battle starts?
I don't understand the premise of the question. Since they are physical objects, then that means the supply of them is limited; therefore you wouldn't want to use them unless you had to.

Besides, 50 would be overkill. An antimatter warhead is far more powerful than a nuclear warhead. Just one photon torpedo should be enough to destroy a city, let alone an unshielded starship. (Although unfortunately too many TV writers are lazy and treat them as basically equivalent to cannonballs.)

Not to mention that antimatter is a rare and valuable resource. It's extremely sparse in naturally occurring forms -- of course, since it's destroyed by interaction with matter -- and it's difficult to manufacture. It's not something you throw away willy-nilly.
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Old January 31 2014, 07:11 PM   #29
doubleohfive
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

Christopher wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
As a writer if you wanted to change something you had established earlier in a book or series of books wouldn't you at least address why/how that thing you established earlier is no longer relevant?
You're still not getting my point. What the writers/producers of a TV show may want to do is one thing. What they are allowed to do is another. The producers of a network television show almost never have full creative control over the show. They are required to conform to the "notes" they receive from their superiors at the studio and the network. So what they want to do is often beside the point. If they wanted to mention the shortages or explain why they no longer existed, that would not matter if the network insisted they just ignore it. Network interference is not "from time to time," it is a constant, everyday reality of television production.
This is an excellent point and one worth remembering when we fans start to harp on Voyager and Enterprise having not "lived up" to what TNG and DS9 were.

The Original Series, Voyager and Enterprise all had to contend with both the studio notes and the network notes.

TNG and DS9, being syndicated shows, never had to worry about or deal with network notes; they only had to deal with the studio. There was no "network" to report to.

It sounds trivial, but if those shows were run like the syndicated show I worked on, (Legend of the Seeker) then trust me - it's a whole extra layer of beaurocracy to deal with that can sometimes double the changes, ideas, suggestions, and work on a given episode script and then later the episode cuts that would be submitted for approval prior to final playback and broadcast.
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Old January 31 2014, 07:29 PM   #30
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Re: Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

And of course TV execs come and go. So maybe the lessons are never learned about too much interferrence. Like with anything sometimes it can work sometimes it doesn't.

I'm not so sure on the idea of spending the entire first season(maybe the first half dozen episodes) of ENT on Earth, but it comes down to the execution.
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