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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old February 4 2014, 10:34 AM   #31
Shane Houston
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

I'm glad to hear that this isn't a stand alone with the Aventine. I hate the way Ezri has developed. I liked her best in the Fall when she didn't have a ship. She was more like Dax and less like the generic captain with issues we've had since she was promoted in the Destiny trilogy. Ezri as captain hasn't been as cool as it should have been. She's just been written as a bitchy captain always in a bad mood.

Look I've got no problems with Dax as a captain. Ezri I do. Anyone who knows Deep Space Nine and it's characters will know what I'm talking about. What would Ira Streve Behr or Ronald Moore think of the way DS9's characters have been written?
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Old February 4 2014, 06:50 PM   #32
Jarvisimo
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Halliwell wrote: View Post
I'm glad to hear that this isn't a stand alone with the Aventine. I hate the way Ezri has developed. I liked her best in the Fall when she didn't have a ship. She was more like Dax and less like the generic captain with issues we've had since she was promoted in the Destiny trilogy. Ezri as captain hasn't been as cool as it should have been. She's just been written as a bitchy captain always in a bad mood.

Look I've got no problems with Dax as a captain. Ezri I do. Anyone who knows Deep Space Nine and it's characters will know what I'm talking about. What would Ira Streve Behr or Ronald Moore think of the way DS9's characters have been written?
I think you need only look at BSG to see that Ron Moore might not mind a "bitchy captain [almost] always in a bad mood"
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Last edited by Jarvisimo; February 4 2014 at 08:30 PM.
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Old February 4 2014, 10:53 PM   #33
Shane Houston
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
I'm glad to hear that this isn't a stand alone with the Aventine. I hate the way Ezri has developed. I liked her best in the Fall when she didn't have a ship. She was more like Dax and less like the generic captain with issues we've had since she was promoted in the Destiny trilogy. Ezri as captain hasn't been as cool as it should have been. She's just been written as a bitchy captain always in a bad mood.

Look I've got no problems with Dax as a captain. Ezri I do. Anyone who knows Deep Space Nine and it's characters will know what I'm talking about. What would Ira Streve Behr or Ronald Moore think of the way DS9's characters have been written?
I think you need only look at BSG to see that Ron Moore might not mind a "bitchy captain [almost] always in a bad mood"
No thanks. I'm allergic to BSG. Give me a rash. But I'll take your word for it.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:00 AM   #34
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Halliwell wrote: View Post
Look I've got no problems with Dax as a captain. Ezri I do. Anyone who knows Deep Space Nine and it's characters will know what I'm talking about.
I know DS9 and its characters, and I don't agree with your assessment at all. Ezri deciding to move to the command track in the DS9 Relaunch really made her character so much more interesting, and so much more than just a neurotic Ally McTrill.

What would Ira Streve Behr or Ronald Moore think of the way DS9's characters have been written?
I have three reactions:

1. I think that they'd probably see some creative decisions they agree with, and some creative decisions they don't agree with. And they probably wouldn't agree with one-another about which ones are which. Such is the nature of art; artists will always have to make creative choices that don't satisfy everyone, and will always find themselves making choices that make sense to some and don't to others. This is unavoidable.

2. You're forgetting Robert Hewitt Wolfe, René Echevarria, Hans Beimler, David Weddle, Peter Allen Fields, Michael Taylor, Michael Piller, and Bradley Thompson. DS9 was not the exclusive product of Behr and Moore.

3. Who cares? It's not like their artistic decisions are any more inherently valid than Marco Palmieri's, KRAD's, Una McCormack's, or David Mack's.
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Old February 5 2014, 02:10 PM   #35
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

I think Ira Behr would say... not enough cross-dressing Ferengis
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Old February 5 2014, 05:10 PM   #36
Jarvisimo
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Did any of you read the wonderful review of 'Profit and Lace' on Avclub recently?

To sum up: Quark threatens to fire an employee unless she grants him sexual favors. Then we spend a whole 40 minutes on Quark eventually kind of sort of learning to appreciate the female species, or something. Then he finds out Aluura is actually into the “oo-mox” thing (???), and while he’s briefly kind and apologetic to her, he immediately recants and, presumably, the fuckery commences in earnest. No one learned anything, no one changed, no one grew. Nothing meant anything. Glad we could share this together. Now if you’ll excuse me, there’s a wall that needs staring.
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Old February 5 2014, 05:58 PM   #37
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

I am so very not looking forward to doing "Profit and Lace" in the DS9 Rewatch. I didn't even watch that atrocity when I was rewatching all the Ferengi episodes to prepare for WoDS93.....
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Old February 5 2014, 08:27 PM   #38
Jarvisimo
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Reading Zack's review, I was thinking how you will write your review come the day, Krad!

PS, I really enjoyed your Feringinar novel - there was so much done here to rectify or add to tv ferengi. Although my one main criticism of it, and it was one I really thought was interesting given your treatment of gender in both book and reviews, was that Leeta felt almost as voiceless as Rom's (suitably horrifying in her Stepford-esque way) first wife. Was this deliberate? I imagine Leeta is hard to write, but it was disappointing to see her relegated to being mostly the 'silent wife in distress pregnancy' trope. There was that one scene with Ro, which was good to see, but she never felt very distinct.
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Old February 5 2014, 09:10 PM   #39
JD5000
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

I couldn't STAND Ezri in the TV series. I thought she was by far the most over-emotional, whiny, obnoxious character I have ever seen on Star Trek. Now that the novels have developed her into a character that isn't so two-dimensional, made her more like a 'Dax', I can rewatch those episodes without feeling so negative about the character. I'll surely read this when it's released.
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Old February 5 2014, 09:27 PM   #40
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Halliwell wrote: View Post
Anyone who knows Deep Space Nine and it's characters will know what I'm talking about.
Uhm, no they don't. I loved Ezri on the show, it was Ezri from the novels I couldn't stand. Only now has she been showing some common sense during Ceremony of Losses. Up untill then, TrekLit Ezri was a stuck up little know-it-all because of all her previous knowledge from other hosts. Knowledge is nothing without hubris, something TrekLit Ezri was lacking if you ask me.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:48 AM   #41
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

^^^

Hubris is just another word for being a stuck up little know-it-all. It's a fault, not a virtue that anyone should be aspiring to.

Nevertheless, I love Ezri on the show and in the books.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:56 AM   #42
Christopher
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

You're both off the mark. Hubris means dangerous or fatal overconfidence, the pride that comes before a fall. It's the arrogance that leads one to overreach oneself and bring about one's own defeat or destruction. For instance, Professor Crater's hubris in thinking he could control the Salt Vampire, or Gul Dukat's hubris in thinking he could keep the Dominion in check.
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Old February 11 2014, 01:14 AM   #43
JD5000
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

'Hubris' is the Latin word for 'epic jackass-ary'...we say it in Latin because it sounds more polite in a dead language.
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Old February 11 2014, 01:28 AM   #44
Christopher
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

Actually it's a Greek word. In Ancient Greek usage, it actually had a different meaning from the modern one -- basically the act of shaming or abusing another person, committing assault or sex crimes upon them, anything that's done to demean or diminish another person in order to feel superior to them or take pleasure from their pain or humiliation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

It could also mean arrogance toward the gods, which often led to the intervention of Nemesis, the goddess of retribution. The classic example of hubris in Greek mythology is Arachne, who boasted she was a superior weaver to Athena herself, and who wove tapestries mocking the gods. She challenged Athena to a weaving content and lost, and was punished by being turned into the first spider. So that led to the modern notion of hubris as arrogance which provokes one's own punishment or downfall.
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Old February 11 2014, 01:41 AM   #45
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Re: New Aventine novel announced for 2015!

You're totally right, apparently it was essentially the Greek word for 'Roman'. My bad!
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