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Gaming Non-Star Trek Gaming

View Poll Results: Kotor 1 vs 2
Kotor 1 16 80.00%
Kotor 2 4 20.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 27 2014, 03:32 PM   #16
Rincewiend
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Runetouch wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah I wasn't much a fan of the combat system either. I've never really liked it when video games do such literal translations of pen & paper dice rolling systems. I mean the basic underlying systems, sure, but nothing takes me out of a combat experience like firing a blaster volley at an enemy stood out in the open not five meters away and having "miss-miss-miss-miss-miss" appear over their heads.

You get used to it though and it didn't stop me from finishing either game. I just prefer the way they approached combat in Mass Effect which is skill based and stat enhanced, rather than being all about the stats and d20 rolls.
I agree that the combat system sucked. I never liked turn-based combat in video games, always preferred Skyrim/ FPS game combat.
Ehm, you could turn that off...
Make it an action-rpg...
Personally i wish they would release the source code to the exe so other people can update it like Id did with the older Quake and Doom games...
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Old January 27 2014, 05:53 PM   #17
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

I've never played pen and paper RPGs, it's just not my sort of thing, so I felt lost during the combat sequences. Most enemies were simple to kill unless they attacked in large numbers, which was the only time that there seemed to be genuine strategy to the game, while the bosses seemed to require a great deal of luck and some min-maxing, something I had no idea how to do. I eventually discovered what I assume was a glitch that allowed me to apply health packs during combat turns through the inventory menu, and that was the only way I managed to make it to the end.

At some really difficult parts, I would just game the combat mechanics in stupid ways. One trick I learned was that if I ran around in circles then an enemy that was focused on me would also run in circles, which allowed my squadmates to shoot or slash them as we passed by. It was really ridiculous looking, but it got me out of many difficult situations.


Reverend wrote: View Post
I just prefer the way they approached combat in Mass Effect which is skill based and stat enhanced, rather than being all about the stats and d20 rolls.
I agree. I know some people don't like shooters, but I personally prefer the ME combat systems. I like knowing that if I missed, it's because I missed, it's not because of a dice-roll that I have no way of influencing.
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Old January 27 2014, 08:41 PM   #18
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

^An odd attitude I've often encountered is the idea that games that don't slavishly adhere to the basic D&D model are automatically considered "dumbed down" and "not real RPGs". To my mind, that's like insisting that a movie adhere to the same rule of structure and pacing as the written word. It's crazy.

To my mind, in video games the rule sets must always exist to support the gameplay experience, not the other way around. A role playing game should be about PLAYING a ROLE, not fiddling with mostly meaningless stats. Especially when there's really only one effective build that the system will allow. The whole excersise becomes rather pointless in that case.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
KOTOR. I think Revan got off a lot better than the Exile. A pity because the Exile is one of those rare canonized female Star Wars game characters who, after the events of KOTOR2 is essentially reduced to a literal battery that keeps the more prominent male Revan alive for The Old Republic MMO. I've seen many stories where female characters are created just for the benefit of the male character, but never this literal.
To be fair, the character wasn't actually created with that purpose in mind. She/he was created as a protagonist in their own story. Not that I'm a huge fan of how either of the two characters were handled in TOR. On the contrary I think they cheapened them both considerably.
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Old January 28 2014, 07:06 PM   #19
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Reverend wrote: View Post
A role playing game should be about PLAYING a ROLE
Amen. It annoyed me when Mass Effect 2 came out and some fans lamented that it wasn't a role-playing game any more, and that the series had become a glorified shooter. It's true that they went too far in minimising stats and the like, but it was still a role-playing game. You still defined Shepard's personality, you still shaped the story through your choices, and you still had freedom to visit various hubs and engage in quests at your own leisure. It's like suggesting that Europa Universalis isn't a strategy game because it doesn't take place on a grid map.

That's not to say that I think their criticism of ME2 was unfair, I can understand why some RPG fans were upset that the game strayed too far from the sort of RPGs that they liked the play. But it was actually more like the sort of RPG that I like to play, the sort that doesn't have an inventory, and doesn't send me on repetitive quests.
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Old January 28 2014, 09:27 PM   #20
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Yeah, the inventory is one of those vestiges from classic fantasy RPGs that they used in ME1 seemingly just because it was the done thing. In reality it served no real purpose since the economy and loot system in the game was broken, pointless and went against the lore to boot.

I mean do we seriously believe Shepard fought her way through Saren's base on Virmire toting a dozen sets of full body armour--two of them Krogan---about fifty assorted pistols, shotguns, assault and sniper rifles plus hundreds of mods, spare omni-tools and bio-amps? Nah, me neither.

I agree though, ME2 went a little too far in streamlining, but at least ME3 more or less found the sweet spot in terms of equipment customization and power sets. I just would have preferred they made it so you could mod the armour pieces like you could the weapons so you could balance aesthetics with functionality.
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Old January 29 2014, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Reverend wrote: View Post
I mean do we seriously believe Shepard fought her way through Saren's base on Virmire toting a dozen sets of full body armour--two of them Krogan---about fifty assorted pistols, shotguns, assault and sniper rifles plus hundreds of mods, spare omni-tools and bio-amps? Nah, me neither.
That's a problem with a lot of games though. I read once that the amount of gold you can carry in Minecraft, if compressed down into the 2m³ the player occupies, would have a density greater than a neutron star.

My main problem with inventories in RPGs is when they restrict how much you can carry for some reason. I played Skyrim recently, and I spent too much time managing my inventory because I ran out of room constantly. Few things in gaming are more tedious than pausing a quest to check stats on items to figure out which should be dropped. On top of that, after almost every quest I had to teleport back to my house to drop stuff off or sell it at stores. Mass Effect 1 probably had the worst inventory system I've ever encountered though, especially on console. It had such a clunky UI, and your inventory got clogged really quickly with a variety of weapons that had miniscule differences in stats. And you had to manage all that for 7 different characters.

KOTOR's inventory system was fine for me because it was limitless, I never had to waste time discarding items because I hit some arbitrary limit on what I could carry. I understand why limits exist for balance reasons, but I just consider that stuff to be wasted time.
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Old January 29 2014, 08:53 PM   #22
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

I didn't find the turn-based combat to be all that bad, to be honest. It's what I preferred using in both games.

My problem is more with games that don't integrate D&D rules very well into their games. It should be more of an "under the hood" kind of thing where you shouldn't really have to notice it in order to play successfully Aside from stats, it should be transparent to the gameplay experience.

Ok, story time. I have Baldur's Gate, but I've never completed it for this very reason. I would love to, given the fact that it's a classic, but gameplay seems to rely too much on knowing exactly what you need in terms of stats, making it very difficult to just play in the process. It leads me to getting my ass beat very early on and that's just not fun.

Speaking of inventories, I agree with Mass Effect being the worst. The dumbing down of the inventory made it horribly broken and uninformative, worse yet being that there was a limit to how much you could carry and selling items one at a time. Most items and upgrades were redundant as well. It's surprising given the history in Bioware developing RPGs. Late in the game, and you could still randomly get upgrades that were useless for how late in the game you were. Why am I still getting level 1 upgrades?
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Old January 29 2014, 09:54 PM   #23
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Dragon Age: Origins has an inventory system so bad, it makes me not play it. Seriously, I quit playing because I hated having to search through every character's items to figure out if anyone had anything that would boost their stats.

In any case, the sort of min-maxing you're talking about is pretty rampant. Any game that relies more on statistics and strategy than reflexes will have play styles that are quantitatively more effective. That's how you end up with things like junk classes, or classes that are far too powerful. Also, it's why a lot of games use the rock-paper-scissors paradigm, because it's much easier to balance things in a triad than larger combinations.
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Old January 31 2014, 05:10 PM   #24
Jeyl
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Dragon Age: Origins has an inventory system so bad, it makes me not play it. Seriously, I quit playing because I hated having to search through every character's items to figure out if anyone had anything that would boost their stats.
What a pity. Dragon Age Origins I find to still be a pretty solid game with a storyline that's very replay-able. I vote for a cheat add-on sir. Just blow your way through the oppressors and enjoy the story.
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Old February 3 2014, 05:51 AM   #25
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

Yep Robert, I agree. I just wish in the case of min-maxing, that they'd be able to offer ready-made characters based on the class you choose, kind of like they did with Arcanum, which I loved. That was a great game that used similar rules but seemed less abstract about the use of its rules.
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Old February 3 2014, 04:06 PM   #26
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

The original KOTOR is (much like the original Baldur's Gate and the first Mass Effect) one of the reasons I'm lamenting the "death" of BioWare at the hands of EA's shareholder interest.

That said, KOTOR 2 is an incredibly well-crafted game with a probably more interesting story compared to the first game. To this day, I'm a big fan of Obsidian Entertainment, and KOTOR 2 played a big part in my affection for that studio.
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Old February 5 2014, 04:03 AM   #27
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
That said, KOTOR 2 is an incredibly well-crafted game with a probably more interesting story compared to the first game. To this day, I'm a big fan of Obsidian Entertainment, and KOTOR 2 played a big part in my affection for that studio.
Obsidian... reaches high. But they don't meet their contracted release dates, so the final product just isn't as satisfying as it could be.

Hopefully their self-funded RPG (Project Eternity) will be able to meet the polish bar their retail games never could.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:28 AM   #28
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

I really like both of them, but KotOR1 just sneaks in above 2.

KotOR2 had too many glitches and story elements that made no sense, though did have some characters I really liked (Bao-Dur and Visas in particular), however others were just pointless and I never used (all the droids for example, especially G0-T0--what was it useful for anyways?).

KotOR1 had a good story and all the characters had their own role and purpose and were used equally, as well as opening up some interesting side quests that helped to really flesh them out.

Its a shame we never got KotOR3 to see how it all ended, and to play with Revan and the Exile together.
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Old February 5 2014, 09:11 AM   #29
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

ATimson wrote: View Post
SPCTRE wrote: View Post
That said, KOTOR 2 is an incredibly well-crafted game with a probably more interesting story compared to the first game. To this day, I'm a big fan of Obsidian Entertainment, and KOTOR 2 played a big part in my affection for that studio.
Obsidian... reaches high.
True. I loved Alpha Protocol, but it was a perfect example for their certain brand of, frankly, lack of polish
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Old February 5 2014, 11:53 PM   #30
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Re: Kotor 1 vs 2

KOTOR II by a mile. More robust gameplay mechanics. More complex and high-concept story. Better mods. Better pazaak. And all around better replay value.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Its a shame we never got KotOR3 to see how it all ended, and to play with Revan and the Exile together.
Karpyshyn's book does exactly that. It's terrible, but that's beside the point.

Combined with Revan's Meetra's and Bastila's appearances in SWTOR it's more than what would have been gained from a strait KOTOR III.

But for the record, Revan is currently merchandising himself for the Hutt Cartel.
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