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Old February 18 2014, 10:50 PM   #106
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

SicOne wrote: View Post
And we don't necessarily know how early in the battle Melbourne was wiped. In "Emissary", there was a gap of several seconds between the Borg telling the task force that they'd be assimilated and the time that Saratoga (Sisko's ship) began firing, and almost immediately after Saratoga's volley was when Melbourne bit it, but I find it hard to believe that the relatively-weak Saratoga led off the fight when there was much heavier firepower available with that Ambassador and Nebula tag-teaming (as well as probably another Ambassador and Nebula there as well). So I am inclined to think that a few heavy-hitters attacked immediately and were obliterated in that few seconds gap between the end of the Borg's declaration and when Captain Satelk (or whatever his name was) ordered Saratoga into the fight.
The point of the "Emissary" scene (and confirmed by Rob Legato, who filmed the scene) was that the ships were just entering the battle; they were the "first wave," if you will. So that lends even more credence that the Melbourne was not Hanson's ship, as it was the first vessel of the 40 to be destroyed.

Which does, however, lead to an interesting question...why was Saratoga tractor-beamed instead of downright destroyed? I mean, there'd be no Sisko on DS9 if Saratoga was just wiped out with the ease that Melbourne was, but there should be an in-universe explanation of why that was. Maybe the Borg had never encountered a Bolian before and was planning to send drones to capture Sisko's crewer once they'd finished obliterating the fleet, to better study and evaluate that species possible betterment of the collective? Maybe the Borg thought they'd lose more drones than they did and had held Saratoga with the intentions of transporting survivors out of it to be Borgified, then decided against it and fired a blast that set off the Dreaded Warp Core Timer?
Because the script needed it to be that way

I have another question...if 40 starships were assembled at Wolf 359, and Hanson even said he'd miss Enterprise-D at the party, but only 39 were destroyed, who was the survivor? The dialogue suggests it wasn't Enterprise. And when Enterprise moved through the debris field, they didn't find any survivors...had they, they would have felt obligated to conduct rescue operations, which would have slowed the dramatic pacing of the episode as they rushed to Earth to stop the cube.

So...who survived, and who picked up the survivors' lifeboats and evac'd the intact portions of the destroyed ships?
Evidence suggests the surviving ship was the Ahwahnee (as it appears again as part of Picard's tachyon detection grid in "Redemption"). However, it couldn't have been the ship that retrieved the escape pods, because it was still there when the Enteprise arrived and determined there were no life signs, so perhaps the ship was salvaged after the battle, repaired, and returned to active duty. So it could have been any of the 30 or so other unknown ships.
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Old February 18 2014, 11:05 PM   #107
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Well based on "Scorpion" where Janeway references stuff said by a Captain Amasov of Endeavour, it's probably likely that was the one ship that survived and got the heck out of dodge. The same ship would later show up in First Contact, so perhaps it was tapped to be part of that battle because it was the only one to survive Wolf 359.
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Old February 19 2014, 03:56 PM   #108
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Re: New Orleans-Class

SicOne wrote: View Post
So...who survived, and who picked up the survivors' lifeboats and evac'd the intact portions of the destroyed ships?
According to Andrew Probert and his proposoal for the Ships-of-the-Line Calendar 2014 it would have looked something like that: http://www.thetrekcollective.com/201...4-preview.html

Bob
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Old February 19 2014, 07:07 PM   #109
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Interesting.
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Old February 19 2014, 07:39 PM   #110
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
SicOne wrote: View Post
So...who survived, and who picked up the survivors' lifeboats and evac'd the intact portions of the destroyed ships?
According to Andrew Probert and his proposoal for the Ships-of-the-Line Calendar 2014 it would have looked something like that: http://www.thetrekcollective.com/201...4-preview.html

Bob
I think what SicOne was asking was what ship collected the escape pods and left the scene of the immediate aftermath of the battle, not what salvage operations took place long after the battle was over.
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Old February 19 2014, 08:40 PM   #111
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Yeah, I think the Captain Amasov from the log entry Janeway read in Scorpion Pt. I must've been the commander of the only ship that survived 359.
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Old February 19 2014, 08:51 PM   #112
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Yeah, I think the Captain Amasov from the log entry Janeway read in Scorpion Pt. I must've been the commander of the only ship that survived 359.
But did Janeway explicitly state that the Endeavour was at Wolf 359? If not, then the ship could have just encountered the Borg at any other time. I also think she mentioned the Excalibur encountering the Borg too, and that ship was also seen after BoBW. But I don't know if that ship was specifically stated to have been in the battle either.
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Old February 19 2014, 08:55 PM   #113
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Re: New Orleans-Class

No, it was never stated as such in "Scorpion." The last edition of the Encyclopedia inferred that the Endeavor was the lone survivor on the basis of Janeway reading log entries, but personally I'm open to it being a smaller encounter.
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Old February 19 2014, 10:57 PM   #114
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Agreed. Contrary to what the producers of the show tell you, it doesn't ALWAYS have to be the Enterprise that does all the cool stuff.

I was using the Oberth earlier as an example. Hanson could have been aboard ANY ship, and I was also suggesting that the E-D battle bridge set could have been the "standard" BB that was installed into ships that had them. The set was different than the S1 set anyway, so it could have been a fleet-wide upgrade (or at least to several classes of ship) explaining why Hanson's bridge was used in the first place. BTW, I also think that Oberth was trying to get close enough to pick up escape pods, but got a little too close...

Regarding Saratoga, I figured that there was SOMETHING aboard her that the Borg thought would be interesting, and so they detained it for examination via assimilation. Alternatively, they could have lost some drones during the altercations with the Enterprise leading up to Wolf 359, and so picked the weakest ships out of that first wave (I doubt many would argue that Saratoga was the least capable of them, including an Excelsior, Nebula and Ambassador) to capture and subsequently destroy when they were done. Either way, while Sisko was doing his thing as portrayed, I personally have little doubt that several decks of Saratoga were busy being swarmed by Borg.

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Old February 20 2014, 04:00 PM   #115
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Unicron wrote: View Post
No, it was never stated as such in "Scorpion." The last edition of the Encyclopedia inferred that the Endeavor was the lone survivor on the basis of Janeway reading log entries, but personally I'm open to it being a smaller encounter.
Or one of several big encounters which happened off-screen post-BoBW. Remember Picard's ranty speech from First Contact, "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back..."
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Old February 20 2014, 08:41 PM   #116
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Re: New Orleans-Class

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Or one of several big encounters which happened off-screen post-BoBW. Remember Picard's ranty speech from First Contact, "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back..."
That's interesting. Was the Feds losing a world every few months or years and Starfleet just suppressed the bad news?
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Old March 11 2014, 10:00 PM   #117
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Re: New Orleans-Class

I'd suggest the Borg wanted ships assimilated so that these could be turned into further Cubes and sent to reinforce the mighty Borg Collective - and to propel newly captured interesting samples (a category that does not include any of the technology or passengers of the dull old Saratoga) away from the battle site, and to further hijinks in another quadrant and another spinoff show.

It's just that the Saratoga is trivially assimilable intact, while bigger and more interesting ships are going to put up a better fight...

I'm not a big fan of the idea of there having been exactly 40 ships present, and exactly one survivor. For all we know, there were no surviving ships whatsoever (why should the Borg have allowed for such?), and the pods escaped simply because that's what they were designed to do. Surely an escape pod would be provided with the best possible means to escape an aggressor - stealth to defeat starship sensors being the most obvious such means, since superfast warp engines don't appear likely. And by stealth I don't mean invisibility cloaks, I mean the ability to mask onboard lifesigns and pretend to be a piece of jetsam.

It's just that those pods that broadcast a "pick me up" signal were duly assimilated or then destroyed, while those whose occupants were clever enough to turn off the signal beacon survived and remained invisible to the E-D, despite lingering in the vicinity.

As for Picard's "we fall back" speech, those need not be Federation worlds. The Borg apparently got to the Argolis cluster ahead of the Federation, for example, and may have assimilated various uninhabited or inhabited worlds there. At which point the Feds had the option of doing something about it, or of falling back, and they chose the latter, with zero losses of UFP lives or property.

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Old March 12 2014, 01:07 PM   #118
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Timo wrote: View Post
I'm not a big fan of the idea of there having been exactly 40 ships present, and exactly one survivor. For all we know, there were no surviving ships whatsoever (why should the Borg have allowed for such?).
Well, the Borg do things in their own mysterious ways, but might have adopted some humanoid concepts, like leaving one survivor behind to tell others how the Borg defeated Starfleet at Wolf 359.

Psychologic warfare could be an instrument they make use of, saves a lot of energy to see others surrender at the first sight of a Borg cube rather than to engage in a fight.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's just that those pods that broadcast a "pick me up" signal were duly assimilated or then destroyed, while those whose occupants were clever enough to turn off the signal beacon survived and remained invisible to the E-D, despite lingering in the vicinity.
That's a great one! Even a scan of the area (is it safe to show up, yet?) could have attracted the Borg (or others of their vessels following?), so better to play dead and hope that the one who is eventually opening your pod doesn't have strange implants in the face.

Bob

(I already mentioned it's good to have you back? The "interestingness" of various threads noticably increased, at least that's the way I feel about it)
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Old March 13 2014, 07:18 PM   #119
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Re: New Orleans-Class

That is what they want you to think, Timo.

Wolf 359 was an inside job. And the architects? The Starfleet Science-Industrial Complex.

They don't want you to think there was a surviving ship because the Endeavour was a black project (continuation of Project Blue Beam vis a vis Section 31 and the New Galactic Order). The events of the next few years were awfully convenient... the death of the Soliton Wave project which would have liberated us from the yoke of Big Dilithium interests, the sudden and arbitrary declaration that warp drive was destroying space, allowing Starfleet to control civilian traffic by limiting us to Warp 5, and the kicker - the threat of the "Borg", manufactured by the Federation to justify militarization of the Starfleet. I could go on, but its clear you're just a sheeple like the rest of them.
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Old March 14 2014, 12:04 AM   #120
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd suggest the Borg wanted ships assimilated so that these could be turned into further Cubes and sent to reinforce the mighty Borg Collective - and to propel newly captured interesting samples (a category that does not include any of the technology or passengers of the dull old Saratoga) away from the battle site, and to further hijinks in another quadrant and another spinoff show.

It's just that the Saratoga is trivially assimilable intact, while bigger and more interesting ships are going to put up a better fight...

I'm not a big fan of the idea of there having been exactly 40 ships present, and exactly one survivor. For all we know, there were no surviving ships whatsoever (why should the Borg have allowed for such?), and the pods escaped simply because that's what they were designed to do. Surely an escape pod would be provided with the best possible means to escape an aggressor - stealth to defeat starship sensors being the most obvious such means, since superfast warp engines don't appear likely. And by stealth I don't mean invisibility cloaks, I mean the ability to mask onboard lifesigns and pretend to be a piece of jetsam.

It's just that those pods that broadcast a "pick me up" signal were duly assimilated or then destroyed, while those whose occupants were clever enough to turn off the signal beacon survived and remained invisible to the E-D, despite lingering in the vicinity.

As for Picard's "we fall back" speech, those need not be Federation worlds. The Borg apparently got to the Argolis cluster ahead of the Federation, for example, and may have assimilated various uninhabited or inhabited worlds there. At which point the Feds had the option of doing something about it, or of falling back, and they chose the latter, with zero losses of UFP lives or property.

Timo Saloniemi
The borg goal was to get to Earth, not to set around and fight a battle with 40 or more starships and then assimilated the crew of those starships. They more likely either disable or destroy them with out stopping and kept on going.
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