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Old February 17 2014, 11:58 PM   #91
yenny
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
After watching the scene with Hanson again, one can hardly make out that the battle bridge set was even used for the scene. I see a railing, the TMP-style red alert graphic, and part of some piece of set dressing. Hanson himself and the red alert display take up most of the visual, so it is not any kind of proof whatsoever that his ship is a Galaxy.

Of course, since there's no definitive list of what ships were at the battle other than the ten or so we saw on screen, one cannot say for certain if a Galaxy was in the battle. But I personally prefer that there wasn't.
You cannot see the battle bridge playing the tape at normal speed. To see the battle bridge, you will have to play the tape in the slowest slow motion.
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Old February 17 2014, 11:58 PM   #92
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: New Orleans-Class

On the ol' Flare forums someone once did a screencap enhancement of Hanson's bridge, and it pretty clearly showed that it was the E-D battle bridge set from the same episode. The only real difference was the display in the background, which showed the movie-era Red Alert animation instead of some spiffy CG twirls of the E-D stardrive section that we see later on when Riker and co. inhabit the set.

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Old February 18 2014, 12:54 AM   #93
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

My point was that even if the bridge of Hanson's ship was an exact carbon copy of the Enterprise-D's battle bridge, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was on a Galaxy class ship.
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Old February 18 2014, 01:06 AM   #94
Nob Akimoto
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Re: New Orleans-Class

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/se...two-hd-192.jpg

Yeah, this angle seems to be the closest to Hanson on the Bridge, so it does look like the same set.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:26 AM   #95
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Agreed with Dukhat - it could be ANY bridge, really. Some think that it's the battle bridge of a Galaxy class ship simply because it's the same set, and that carries a certain amount fo logic to it (you wouldn't want an overbearing Admiral backseat driving your ship while also commanding a fleet). However it could easily be the main OR battle bridge of pretty much any starship. I think the battle bridge module on the E-D at the time could be the same as most any relatively recent starship (it's almost completely different than the set seen at in the first season of TNG, having been rebuilt since then from SOME of the movie Enterprise and the rest from the guest set that had been seen as the E-C the previous year, including the rear walls and CO chair) having been built to whatever standard they wanted to have for a Battle Bridge.

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Old February 18 2014, 02:52 AM   #96
Nob Akimoto
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Re: New Orleans-Class

We do know that a bunch of Federation starship bridges have a similar layout to the E-D battle bridge. Saratoga (The Emissary), Hathaway (Peak Performance), Prometheus (Second Sight) all used what was essentially the same set with a slightly different layout of MSDs and consoles. So basically the fact that Hanson's bridge DIDN'T have the same spinny graphics from the E-D's battle bridge might indicate it was a separate type of ship.
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Old February 18 2014, 09:19 AM   #97
SicOne
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Re: New Orleans-Class

I am inclined to think that (1) he was on the Melbourne and (2) per Tigger's "Ships of the Star Fleet" write-up, Melbourne was a dedicated command ship and Hanson was leading the fight from a command center in the ship (not necessarily Melbourne's bridge).

Do we know from DS9 "Emissary" screencaps if Melbourne was the Excelsior we see get a giant hunk taken out of its primary hull at the beginning of the battle? If so, is it possible that the big lurch we see Hanson's bridge get shaken by when he goes "The fight does not go well, Enterprise..." was caused by the blasting of Melbourne's primary hull? IIRC, Melbourne's wreckage continues towards the Borg cube after the hull gets chunked, which might suggest that contact with Hanson continued until Melbourne impacted the Borg cube's hull.
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Old February 18 2014, 10:44 AM   #98
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

^Yes, the Excelsior seen in "Emissary" was the Melbourne. Also, one could retroactively state that this Melbourne was also the ship seen at the beginning of BoBW Part I, which brings Hanson to the Enterprise in the first place.

However, I kinda have a problem with the Melbourne being Hanson's flagship, mainly because I would think an admiral would want to be in charge of a more advanced ship if he's going into battle with an enemy as deadly as the Borg. In "Emissary" we see a Nebula, an Ambassador, an Excelsior and a Miranda. Which ship would you want to be flying in if you were in command? I'd take the Nebula.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:15 PM   #99
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Or, that Oberth we see later possibly coming to the aid of the Saratoga. Were I in charge of 39+ ships and 11,000+ lives, I'd hesitate in commanding from the front line. I"d just as happily choose a smaller, slower ship to lead fleet tactics, as long as it had the comm gear to be able to coordinate the fight.


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Old February 18 2014, 03:14 PM   #100
F. King Daniel
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Re: New Orleans-Class

IIRC, Hansen's flagship being Galaxy-class comes from the novel Vendetta, which as others said likely comes from the re-use of the battle bridge set. I guess it'd have to be a Galaxy using the old movie-era OS, going by the red alert graphic.
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Old February 18 2014, 09:02 PM   #101
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
Or, that Oberth we see later possibly coming to the aid of the Saratoga. Were I in charge of 39+ ships and 11,000+ lives, I'd hesitate in commanding from the front line. I"d just as happily choose a smaller, slower ship to lead fleet tactics, as long as it had the comm gear to be able to coordinate the fight.
You know, you're right. I totally forgot the "give orders and then step back" mentality of high-ranking officers. But the Oberth? Even as a non-front-line ship, there's no way in hell I'd be commanding from an Oberth.
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Old February 18 2014, 09:22 PM   #102
Cyke101
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
Or, that Oberth we see later possibly coming to the aid of the Saratoga. Were I in charge of 39+ ships and 11,000+ lives, I'd hesitate in commanding from the front line. I"d just as happily choose a smaller, slower ship to lead fleet tactics, as long as it had the comm gear to be able to coordinate the fight.
You know, you're right. I totally forgot the "give orders and then step back" mentality of high-ranking officers. But the Oberth? Even as a non-front-line ship, there's no way in hell I'd be commanding from an Oberth.
I'm so surprised that we've seen Oberths engage the Borg as part of an assembled fleet on TWO occasions. If I were captain of an Oberth and Starfleet command ordered me to go into battle, I'd just pull a Chekov and Sulu on shore leave and try to blow really hard into my comm unit.
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Old February 18 2014, 10:18 PM   #103
SicOne
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Re: New Orleans-Class

This is just speculation on my part on some in-universe explanations, but...if Hanson was commanding from a specialized communications center on Melbourne, tailor-made for fleet C3I situations and ostensibly better than what he could use on a Nebula-class not necessarily fitted thusly, that could explain why he didn't transfer over to a better or more well-defended ship. Melbourne's registry number is indicative of a recently constructed ship (and no, I don't want to get into THAT war...) and thus the Tigger-provided explanation of a command ship fits the situation handily, thank you.

And we don't necessarily know how early in the battle Melbourne was wiped. In "Emissary", there was a gap of several seconds between the Borg telling the task force that they'd be assimilated and the time that Saratoga (Sisko's ship) began firing, and almost immediately after Saratoga's volley was when Melbourne bit it, but I find it hard to believe that the relatively-weak Saratoga led off the fight when there was much heavier firepower available with that Ambassador and Nebula tag-teaming (as well as probably another Ambassador and Nebula there as well). So I am inclined to think that a few heavy-hitters attacked immediately and were obliterated in that few seconds gap between the end of the Borg's declaration and when Captain Satelk (or whatever his name was) ordered Saratoga into the fight.

Additionally, however, and this is the more likely explanation, the Borg could have been monitoring communications between Melbourne and the rest of the fleet and though Melbourne was intending to hang back and send in the heavies, the Borg cube might have tracked comms and maneuvered to intercept and destroy Melbourne first, giving the Leeroy Jenkins treatment to Hansen's carefully thought-out battle plan, and Saratoga had the bad misfortune to be in that breach, fired a few volleys, and was held in the tractor beam.

Which does, however, lead to an interesting question...why was Saratoga tractor-beamed instead of downright destroyed? I mean, there'd be no Sisko on DS9 if Saratoga was just wiped out with the ease that Melbourne was, but there should be an in-universe explanation of why that was. Maybe the Borg had never encountered a Bolian before and was planning to send drones to capture Sisko's crewer once they'd finished obliterating the fleet, to better study and evaluate that species possible betterment of the collective? Maybe the Borg thought they'd lose more drones than they did and had held Saratoga with the intentions of transporting survivors out of it to be Borgified, then decided against it and fired a blast that set off the Dreaded Warp Core Timer?

Regarding the Oberth, I am inclined to think that its job was to lurk about the perimeter of battle and transport survivors, then get the hell out of there. I don't think it was meant to participate as an actual combatant, and perhaps upon detecting warp core damage on Saratoga it was trying to maneuver to transport Saratoga crew to safety when it got wiped.
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Old February 18 2014, 10:21 PM   #104
SicOne
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Re: New Orleans-Class

I have another question...if 40 starships were assembled at Wolf 359, and Hanson even said he'd miss Enterprise-D at the party, but only 39 were destroyed, who was the survivor? The dialogue suggests it wasn't Enterprise. And when Enterprise moved through the debris field, they didn't find any survivors...had they, they would have felt obligated to conduct rescue operations, which would have slowed the dramatic pacing of the episode as they rushed to Earth to stop the cube.

So...who survived, and who picked up the survivors' lifeboats and evac'd the intact portions of the destroyed ships?
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Old February 18 2014, 10:45 PM   #105
Cyke101
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Re: New Orleans-Class

SicOne wrote: View Post
I have another question...if 40 starships were assembled at Wolf 359, and Hanson even said he'd miss Enterprise-D at the party, but only 39 were destroyed, who was the survivor? The dialogue suggests it wasn't Enterprise. And when Enterprise moved through the debris field, they didn't find any survivors...had they, they would have felt obligated to conduct rescue operations, which would have slowed the dramatic pacing of the episode as they rushed to Earth to stop the cube.

So...who survived, and who picked up the survivors' lifeboats and evac'd the intact portions of the destroyed ships?
It *could* be the USS Endeavour, Nebula-class, based on the fact that Janeway had read Captain Asamov's log about encountering the Borg, and that Voyager left after Wolf 359 but before the next battle in First Contact. The Star Trek Encyclopedia also believes that it's the Endeavour.

The funny thing is that we see the Endeavour fighting the Borg again in First Contact. assuming the captain is the same, that makes Asamov one tough cookie, perhaps the only Starfleet vessel other than Voyager to fight two Borg cubes and live another day.
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