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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 27 2014, 01:20 PM   #106
F. King Daniel
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

That's what happens when you start believing your own hype.
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Old January 27 2014, 02:14 PM   #107
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

YARN wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Just like Kirk tried to rescue the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror or Khan in Wrath of Khan.

Oh wait he didn't.
Actually, he did.

In Balance of Terror he tries to talk the Romulan Commander out of suiciding himself ("What purpose will it serve?") and his ship after ordering him to make himself and his crew ready to be transported to the Enterprise.
I was responding to the fact Pauln6 seems to think thinkKirk should have tried to beam Nero and his crew after he told them to basically f@&k off, and how Kirk didn't try to that in a similar situation with the Romulan Commander from Balance of Terror.

In TWoK, Kirk informs Reliant to prepare to be boarded after destroying her port nacelle. He wasn't just going to leave her burning in space. It was only when the Genesis Device was activated that they tried to escape.
And again he did not try to beam Khan up instead of just leaving at that point much like how NuKirk did not try to forcibly beam Nero and co up.

I'm not talking about talking with them before hand I'm talking about how Prime Kirk was never held to the trying to beam them over any way and only stopping if he can't standard that Pauln6 seems to think NuKirk needs to be held to.
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Old January 27 2014, 03:23 PM   #108
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And again he did not try to beam Khan up instead of just leaving at that point much like how NuKirk did not try to forcibly beam Nero and co up.
The Genesis Device can be transported when inactive, but when active it emits some sort of energy "the Genesis Wave" which makes it impossible to transport. We don't know that they could've beamed anyone over. Were they in transporter range in Balance of Terror?

More importantly, Kirk's first responsibility is to the ship and crew, so hightailing it out of there without any further ado was the proper course of action.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about talking with them before hand I'm talking about how Prime Kirk was never held to the trying to beam them over any way and only stopping if he can't standard that Pauln6 seems to think NuKirk needs to be held to.
Well, he was certainly under no obligation to save the Romulans against their will. I was not sure what the point of shooting up the ship "real good" (along with Spock's "yeah, blow it up!" logic) as it was crushed in a black hole was supposed to prove. Then again, that was not a moment that seemed un-Trekian to me, because Trek has enjoyed blowing things (and lifeforms) to bits on occasion.
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Old January 27 2014, 03:36 PM   #109
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

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I recall Lucas' dislike of Empire comes from how the director of that film portrayed the mythos of the Force.
That doesn't make much sense to me, given that:

* TESB's portrayal of the Force is consistent with that of ANH;

* it also reflects Lucas' view at the time of the production of the film, as evidenced by various sources including The Annotated Screenplays and Rinzler's The Making of TESB.
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Old January 27 2014, 03:40 PM   #110
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I recall Lucas' dislike of Empire comes from how the director of that film portrayed the mythos of the Force.
That doesn't make much sense to me, given that:

* TESB's portrayal of the Force is consistent with that of ANH;

* it also reflects Lucas' view at the time of the production of the film, as evidenced by various sources including The Annotated Screenplays and Rinzler's The Making of TESB.
Yeah, AllStarEntprise, is there a link to Lucas's view on TESB that backs up what you're saying?
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Old January 27 2014, 04:01 PM   #111
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

I could only find this link from 2007. http://www.slashfilm.com/geroge-luca...ar-wars-movie/

I can't remember where I heard why Lucas disliked ESB. After looking for his reasons, I have been unable to find one. I may have confused fan speculation with fact with regards to the Force statement. I apologize and retract my earlier statement.
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Old January 27 2014, 04:35 PM   #112
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I could only find this link from 2007. http://www.slashfilm.com/geroge-luca...ar-wars-movie/

I can't remember where I heard why Lucas disliked ESB. After looking for his reasons, I have been unable to find one. I may have confused fan speculation with fact with regards to the Force statement. I apologize and retract my earlier statement.
No worries. That quote you've linked to really is something, though, isn't it!
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Old January 27 2014, 08:22 PM   #113
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??
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Old January 27 2014, 08:46 PM   #114
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??

it's best not to think too closely about Nero's crew, as it opens up all kinds of holes. For instance, why did they all agree to wait twenty-five years to get "revenge" on someone who wasn't responsible for what happened? The "excuse" for Nero is that he's bug-eyed crazy, but how did he get all of his crew to follow him on what was clearly a mission of madness?
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Old January 27 2014, 08:57 PM   #115
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??
I mentioned them! Apart from his lieutenant, Nero's crew were 1-D ciphers with no motivation. It wasn't very realistic that they would all retain a burning desire to destroy billions of lives even after 25 years - or if they did you would have thought they would have started with Rura Penthe.

Trek's problem is this notion that you can just beam anybody from anywhere. If they had been more sensible from the off, it would not be so obvious when they don't use it. And of course it is made worse in NuTrek because the range of communicators and sensors seems to be increasing exponentially for the sake of plot convenience.
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Old January 27 2014, 09:14 PM   #116
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??
Is Kirk supposed to somehow hold an informal survey of every member of the Narada crew? Is he supposed to rescue only the ones who will willingly depart while fighting those who won't? How is that even remotely logistically feasible?

You guys are holding his actions up to a standard that would be considered completely unreasonable in any vaguely similar real world situation. Captains of warships don't poll every member of an enemy crew to see where they stand. Their captain speaks on their behalf unless they mutiny and replace him. If the Narada crew had wanted to be rescued and not gone down with the ship, that was their only conceivable option once Nero refused rescue.

As far as transporters go, the transwarp beaming equation wasn't integrated into the ship's systems, and regular transporters actually seem to have a great deal of limitations vs. their Primeverse counterparts, especially in regards to targeting sensors and so forth. They might not have been able to pinpoint individual enemy crew unless they stood in a known, fixed location. Also, we don't know if these transporters can disarm an enemy during transport.
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Old January 27 2014, 09:31 PM   #117
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??
Is Kirk supposed to somehow hold an informal survey of every member of the Narada crew? Is he supposed to rescue only the ones who will willingly depart while fighting those who won't? How is that even remotely logistically feasible?

You guys are holding his actions up to a standard that would be considered completely unreasonable in any vaguely similar real world situation. Captains of warships don't poll every member of an enemy crew to see where they stand. Their captain speaks on their behalf unless they mutiny and replace him. If the Narada crew had wanted to be rescued and not gone down with the ship, that was their only conceivable option once Nero refused rescue.

As far as transporters go, the transwarp beaming equation wasn't integrated into the ship's systems, and regular transporters actually seem to have a great deal of limitations vs. their Primeverse counterparts, especially in regards to targeting sensors and so forth. They might not have been able to pinpoint individual enemy crew unless they stood in a known, fixed location. Also, we don't know if these transporters can disarm an enemy during transport.
No I don't think we are holding him up to a higher standard here. We just want to see that he has an awareness that he and his crew should aim for such high standards and an awareness of why they can't be met in any given situation. I think of the speech in the Spectre of the Gun and if that's not what he's doing I want to see that the writers themselves have an awareness that he's failing, not boo ya we blew stuff up!

His approach to the Khan scenario was much better albeit there were a fair few silly elements to that movie too.
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Old January 27 2014, 09:49 PM   #118
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Trek's problem is this notion that you can just beam anybody from anywhere. If they had been more sensible from the off, it would not be so obvious when they don't use it. And of course it is made worse in NuTrek because the range of communicators and sensors seems to be increasing exponentially for the sake of plot convenience.
Fans forgive what they like and shit on what they don't. The Dominion had similar long range beaming. Is DS9 complete fail because they never beamed bombs into Starfleet HQ or the Federation President's office?
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Old January 27 2014, 09:58 PM   #119
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post

You guys are holding his actions up to a standard that would be considered completely unreasonable in any vaguely similar real world situation.
Welcome to the Abramsverse!
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Old January 27 2014, 10:04 PM   #120
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

When Nero's crew followed his orders to destroy Vulcan, they were every bit as responsible for every death as he was.
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