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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 26 2014, 11:26 PM   #91
Hartzilla2007
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
E.g. Despite the ship being beyond he event horizon of a black hole, subspace communications were still working. It's feasible that transporters might work - certainly worth a try
Just like Kirk tried to rescue the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror or Khan in Wrath of Khan.

Oh wait he didn't.

Seriously why does nuKirk have to jump through hoops to rescue defeated enemies who tried to kill him when Prime Kirk never had to.
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Old January 26 2014, 11:37 PM   #92
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."
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Old January 26 2014, 11:48 PM   #93
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."
The Ceti eel had just extricated itself from a Starfleet officer. No one knew if it was aggressive enough to attack someone else. I'd have stomped the crap out of it.

In "The Man Trap" Ol' Salty had killed a whole bunch of people already, and was in the process of sucking the life out of Kirk. Self defense (or the defense of others) is a valid legal cause for using deadly force in most jurisdictions. Most certainly in this case.

I think Trelayne's Salt Vampire was freeze dried.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:18 AM   #94
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."
"We come in peace. Shoot to kill."
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Old January 27 2014, 12:42 AM   #95
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

was there really that much fan anger over it? Roddenberry was snarky about it, saying that Kirk acted like an old woman stamping on a cockroach, but then Roddenberry was bitter about his treatment during TWOK. I've never heard or read much complaint from actual fans.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:51 AM   #96
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

sonak wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Why take the chance? If Nero is going to die anyway, then firing on him to ensure that he's destroyed makes no difference. If there's a chance Nero may escape, then Kirk should DEFINITELY fire on him. Either way, the objection makes no sense except as a "it's poor form to fire on a dying man" objection, which is not a very serious objection, especially since Kirk is operating as a soldier lawfully going after a war criminal.
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
But does that need to be explained in explicit film dialogue to be something we can take into consideration here? We thought of it; can't general audiences be expected to do the same?
Exactly. If the film dialogue explains everything, we have absolutely nothing to discuss over drinks after seeing the film except "Did you enjoy it?" and the answer "Yes" or "No".

No debate over moral dilemmas, warp speeds, "Who the hell was that alien-looking cyborg guy in STiD?", "What did the whales say to the Probe?", or "Poor ol' Tuvix, eh?"

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort.
He's not quite there yet.
All good points. In fact one of the most irritating things about SWIII was that they spent the last half an hour tying up loose ends and explicitly revealing spoilers about the original trilogy. Just in case you didn't get it at home - LUKE... LEIA... ACK!

However, I think that's a bit different to expecting us to believe that Kirk meant the opposite of what he said in dialogue because we know he's tricksy. Like I said before I don't think they had the means to rescue Nero or his crew and I do think there was the possibility of Nero or any surviving technolgy posing a threat to whoever was at the other end of that wormhole (probably with the survivors of Vulcan). My objection is to Kirk's explicit reasoning, rather than his ultimate actions.

It's poor form to fire on a dying man if there are other options to consider. And whether you are lawfully pursuing a war criminal or not, summarily executing said war criminal and others with him could, in itself, be a war crime.

As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!
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Old January 27 2014, 01:01 AM   #97
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Kirk doesn't have to not mean what he says - he just doesn't have to be 100% correct.
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Old January 27 2014, 02:00 AM   #98
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Kirk isn't a cop. This was a combat situation, not an arrest.
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Old January 27 2014, 03:55 AM   #99
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fully operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
No more mortally wounded from the Jellyfish collision than it would have been after the similar kamikaze run of the Kelvin, after which it was fully repaired and set out to wreak more havoc. In fact, given the Jellyfish's much smaller size vs. the Kelvin, the damage would have been far less severe.

The Red Matter's effect on the ship is unknown. It could have crushed it in damaged condition, or it could have simply acted as a passageway to another universe Nero can do more harm in. Kirk and Spock can't know for sure, hence their decision when Nero refuses to surrender. Even without any more Red Matter, Nero and the Narada posed a major threat with clear genocidal intent, and there are no shortage of alternate planet/star destroying WMDs available (not to mention just using your own ship at warp to collide with a planet). Why take the risk of letting him possibly escape?

Alternatively, if your view is that the Narada was destined to be crushed into oblivion no matter what Kirk did, maybe his actions could be considered a mercy killing of sorts, speeding the process along rather than making the Narada crew slowly be crushed.
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Old January 27 2014, 04:43 AM   #100
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!
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Old January 27 2014, 05:39 AM   #101
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

There are plenty of things I find faulty about NuTrek, but I wouldn't call the moral compass one of them.
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Old January 27 2014, 08:51 AM   #102
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Just like Kirk tried to rescue the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror or Khan in Wrath of Khan.

Oh wait he didn't.
Actually, he did.

In Balance of Terror he tries to talk the Romulan Commander out of suiciding himself ("What purpose will it serve?") and his ship after ordering him to make himself and his crew ready to be transported to the Enterprise.

In TWoK, Kirk informs Reliant to prepare to be boarded after destroying her port nacelle. He wasn't just going to leave her burning in space. It was only when the Genesis Device was activated that they tried to escape.
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Old January 27 2014, 08:58 AM   #103
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!
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Old January 27 2014, 10:28 AM   #104
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

sonak wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

was there really that much fan anger over it? Roddenberry was snarky about it, saying that Kirk acted like an old woman stamping on a cockroach, but then Roddenberry was bitter about his treatment during TWOK. I've never heard or read much complaint from actual fans.
I don't think anybody but latter-day Roddenberry cared about the bug.
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Old January 27 2014, 11:01 AM   #105
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Isn't it ironic that Gene Roddenberry hated TWOK? The film that most Trek fans consider to be the best in the franchise, even to this day.

Also, George Lucas has said that ESB is his least favorite of the Star Wars movies.
I recall Lucas' dislike of Empire comes from how the director of that film portrayed the mythos of the Force.
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