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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 26 2014, 05:28 PM   #76
Pauln6
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
True but the circumstances were quite different. On this occasion the wormhole was opening inside the ship and the dialogue tells us that this is going to destroy them. As nerds, we cannot discount the possibility that, like so many comic book villains, he won't survive but the casual viewer is not told that and there is no evidence that any of the characters on screen believe that.

We cannot assume Kirk tells the truth but his conversation 'aside' with Spock gives us an insight into both their feelings. Kirk does not want to save Nero but acknowledges that it might be the best option morally and politically.

I don't believe that those Caitians weren't hookers either.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:40 PM   #77
Set Harth
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote:
As nerds, we cannot discount the possibility that, like so many comic book villains, he won't survive
I take it you mean "he will survive"? It doesn't take a nerd to think of that; movies based on comic books have attracted a huge audience.

Pauln6 wrote:
and there is no evidence that any of the characters on screen believe that.
Unless Kirk's firing on the Narada is that evidence.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:45 PM   #78
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It's not the place of a Federation captain (or any military officer) to act as judge, jury, and executioner. You might end up there but it's really supposed to be a decision you reach without another reasonable choice. The fact that your enemy has committed greater war crimes does not justify you committing a war crime yourself.
Yes sometimes it is the job of a Starship Captain to act as judge, jury and executioner.

Plenty of times in TOS Kirk made arbitrary decision based on his experience and knowledge as a Federation Captain. As soon as he found a method he killed those flying things on Deneva. He killed that giant amoeba thingy. Also the cloud creature in Obsession, the Zetarians. Then there's General Order 24.

He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.

And while nuKirk didn't have PrimeKirk's years of experience its not that hard to work out you don't let a mass murderer go no matter what.

You just hope that they always pick the right person for the Captain's job.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:49 PM   #79
Set Harth
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CommishSleer wrote:
He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.
Not to mention later going after him with a phaser rifle, with intent to kill!
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Old January 26 2014, 05:49 PM   #80
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote:
As nerds, we cannot discount the possibility that, like so many comic book villains, he won't survive
I take it you mean "he will survive"? It doesn't take a nerd to think of that; movies based on comic books have attracted a huge audience.

Pauln6 wrote:
and there is no evidence that any of the characters on screen believe that.
Unless Kirk's firing on the Narada is that evidence.

We cannot assume Kirk tells the truth but his conversation 'aside' with Spock gives us an insight into both their feelings. Kirk does not want to save Nero but acknowledges that it might be the best option morally and politically.
Ooh yeah good spot. Although in most movies based on comic books the villains dies and don't DON'T come back.

If we are going to assume that the characters don't say what they mean, how do we know that Nero wouldn't actually like to be rescued but doesn't want to lose face in front of his crew? Or more to the point what does his crew feel about this, since we don't get to see what they say on the matter?

Sometimes the writers' intent is clear e.g. I never believed as a child that Kirk actually did get round to killing Maltz just because he pulled out the same Nero card.

Other times the characters' views are shown to us to be wrong even if they think they're right, such as Picard in First Contact.

Other times they're right and we are supposed to be cheering them on. This was the tone in the movie. A bright a breezy revenge execution. It's the tone that disturbs me as far as Federation ideals go.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:53 PM   #81
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote:
He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.
Not to mention later going after him with a phaser rifle, with intent to kill!
By that point Mitchell had choked out Kelso and attacked Kirk, Spock and Piper.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:57 PM   #82
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It's not the place of a Federation captain (or any military officer) to act as judge, jury, and executioner. You might end up there but it's really supposed to be a decision you reach without another reasonable choice. The fact that your enemy has committed greater war crimes does not justify you committing a war crime yourself.
Yes sometimes it is the job of a Starship Captain to act as judge, jury and executioner.

Plenty of times in TOS Kirk made arbitrary decision based on his experience and knowledge as a Federation Captain. As soon as he found a method he killed those flying things on Deneva. He killed that giant amoeba thingy. Also the cloud creature in Obsession, the Zetarians. Then there's General Order 24.

He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.

And while nuKirk didn't have PrimeKirk's years of experience its not that hard to work out you don't let a mass murderer go no matter what.

You just hope that they always pick the right person for the Captain's job.
The issue for me though is the thought processes that went into those decisions. We see kirk weighing up the pros and cons, wrestling with his conscience, taking advice, and deciding what he has to do.

In Mitchell's case there is dialogue earlier in the episode that establishes the level of threat that Mitchell represents and also that his power drain is temporary therefore going for the kill is definitely still in the realm of self defence.

The flip side is e.g. he stopped Riley from executing Kodos, or he decides that killing the Gorn is wrong.

The Spectre of the Gun sums if up doesn't it? He wanted to kill but fought against that instinct and used reason instead. I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort. That would have been ending B if Nero did not destroy himself.
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Old January 26 2014, 06:02 PM   #83
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
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Old January 26 2014, 06:08 PM   #84
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
Which is also established in dialogue.
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Old January 26 2014, 06:24 PM   #85
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
Which is also established in dialogue.
Yet when they show it moving through the black hole, it looks at least partially intact.
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Old January 26 2014, 06:40 PM   #86
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
Which is also established in dialogue.
Yet when they show it moving through the black hole, it looks at least partially intact.
The wibbly wobbly science of red matter doesn't help us reach a logical conclusion here either.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:52 PM   #87
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.
That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Why take the chance? If Nero is going to die anyway, then firing on him to ensure that he's destroyed makes no difference. If there's a chance Nero may escape, then Kirk should DEFINITELY fire on him. Either way, the objection makes no sense except as a "it's poor form to fire on a dying man" objection, which is not a very serious objection, especially since Kirk is operating as a soldier lawfully going after a war criminal.
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Old January 26 2014, 10:50 PM   #88
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Rory1080p wrote: View Post
I see you are not worth trying to discuss anything with.
Well, you are welcome to try.
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Old January 26 2014, 11:39 PM   #89
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
But does that need to be explained in explicit film dialogue to be something we can take into consideration here? We thought of it; can't general audiences be expected to do the same?
Exactly. If the film dialogue explains everything, we have absolutely nothing to discuss over drinks after seeing the film except "Did you enjoy it?" and the answer "Yes" or "No".

No debate over moral dilemmas, warp speeds, "Who the hell was that alien-looking cyborg guy in STiD?", "What did the whales say to the Probe?", or "Poor ol' Tuvix, eh?"

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort.
He's not quite there yet.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:05 AM   #90
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Dirty Vulcan fighting!
Loved it, seeing Spock use all those techs in combat, for once.

sonak wrote: View Post
there's no faulty moral compass or meaningful debate here. Kirk was stopping a genocidal war criminal and acting to preserve innocent lives.
Indeed. Some people complained about the Vengeance's crash, as it that was the Enterprise crew's fault.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
And I think Picard should have put the virus in Hugh. If that could have worked billions might have been saved. The billions and billions taken over by the Borg in the Delta Quadrant after Picard had not made the tough decision.
Yeah, sometimes Picard's morals went in the way of... well, other morals.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Correct, which is why I suggested an attempt should be made to arrest him and when that failed stress that there was still a possibility that he might escape. As it was, the only express dialogue was that Nero's ship was about to be destroyed.
How are you supposed to rescue Nero from the center of an expanding black hole ? Even if Nero accepted Kirk's offer, I don't see what his plan was.
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