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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 25 2014, 07:37 PM   #46
Brutal Strudel
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
there's no faulty moral compass or meaningful debate here. Kirk was stopping a genocidal war criminal and acting to preserve innocent lives.
Well, that settles that. Good thing the Metrons didn't have you fight the Gorn.
Isn't that really comparing apples and oranges?

Kirk's offer of help is rebuffed, so he makes sure Nero is unable to trouble anyone else ever again. I've never seen the dispute here? He's rebuffed by Kruge, so he kicks him in the face several times until he falls to his death. Poor Chang never even got the offer of help as Kirk and Sulu poured it on until the Bird-of-Prey was dust. Yet I've never seen anyone complain about either action.
Kirk wasn't simply rebuffed by Kruge, though; Kruge was actively trying to kill him. It's not as if Kruge just looked up at Kirk and spewed a bunch of "I'd rather die" lines and then Kirk said, "Then!" KICK! "Let me!" KICK! "Help you!" KICK! That's why I offered a very slight adjustment where Nero does more than refuse Kirk's offer but, like Kruge, actively tries to drag the Enterprise into the black hole with him.

Nero's ship was in really bad shape--it maybe could have survived a trip through the black hole (neither the Narada nor Jellyfish were significantly structurally compromised when they started the whole chain of wacky hijinks). The ship was defenseless. The Narada didn't "grab Kirk's ankle." Nero was in a position more akin to the Gorn or Wyatt Earp than to Kruge.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:48 PM   #47
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Nero was in a position more akin to the Gorn or Wyatt Earp than to Kruge.
But he really wasn't. He had a whole bay full of varying types of ships that he could've used to cause trouble whenever he ended up.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:55 PM   #48
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
there's no faulty moral compass or meaningful debate here. Kirk was stopping a genocidal war criminal and acting to preserve innocent lives.
Well, that settles that. Good thing the Metrons didn't have you fight the Gorn.
Isn't that really comparing apples and oranges?

Kirk's offer of help is rebuffed, so he makes sure Nero is unable to trouble anyone else ever again. I've never seen the dispute here? He's rebuffed by Kruge, so he kicks him in the face several times until he falls to his death. Poor Chang never even got the offer of help as Kirk and Sulu poured it on until the Bird-of-Prey was dust. Yet I've never seen anyone complain about either action.
Plus the Gorn Commander never ranted about how he was going to destroy the entire federation.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:03 PM   #49
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Yes--the Gorn Commander wasn't deranged by grief over losing everything, including his wife and unborn child. The Gorn commander just launched a cold-blooded (see what i did there?) attack on peaceful colonists as a matter of apparent policy. Perhaps Kirk should have beamed Nero into the brig and taken him to Tantalus or Elba II for intensive therapy. If he did choose to go to Elba II, he could have killed Garth because I saw "Whom Gods Destroy" and, man, that guy was dangerous.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:11 PM   #50
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Remember that the Narada was attempting to drill to the Earth's core and destroy it with red matter; prior to the ship being ripped to pieces by the singularity. Nero had already committed genocide on the Vulcans and destroyed their planet. On the same goddamn day he planned to repeat the process to Earth and it's population. Nero planned to commit double genocide in less than 24 hours and some how Kirk's morals are called in to question?

Nero was a genocidal maniac. He lashed out at people who had nothing to do with the loss of his home world in the prime timeline. Despite knowing he was in the past, Nero did nothing that could help save Romulus in the future. Instead he attacks and kills people on the Kelvin, destroys 47 Klingon Warbirds, destroys 5 Starfleet ships attempting to assist Vulcan, destroys Vulcan and roughly 6 billion inhabitants, and attempts to destroy Earth.

Nero was a mad dog who needed to be put down. Kirk did the right thing ordering all weapons to fire on the Narada. Kirk had an obligation to ensure that Nero could never repeat the what he did.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:17 PM   #51
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

Nero destroyed a planet.

He intended to destroy more.

He had the means to do it.
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed. If you look close enough, you'll see the Narada is literally torn apart, not to mention being already cut in half.

And his means to destroy more planets? The moment Spock crashed the Jellyfish into the Narada, all the red matter was used up. His means of destroying more planets are GONE. And if he plans to use other means, what the heck was he waiting for for 20+ years?

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks. He has no means to attack since he lost his weapon and he has no means of following his plans due to his sever injuries.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:26 PM   #52
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
there's no faulty moral compass or meaningful debate here. Kirk was stopping a genocidal war criminal and acting to preserve innocent lives.
Well, that settles that. Good thing the Metrons didn't have you fight the Gorn.

except for the fact that the two situations are nothing alike

the Gorn conflict was a misunderstanding and the planetary fight scenario was entirely contrived.

Nero wasn't misunderstood and wouldn't have stopped trying to destroy planets. It was like Superman killing Zod in "man of steel."
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Old January 25 2014, 08:31 PM   #53
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

Nero destroyed a planet.

He intended to destroy more.

He had the means to do it.
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed. If you look close enough, you'll see the Narada is literally torn apart, not to mention being already cut in half.

And his means to destroy more planets? The moment Spock crashed the Jellyfish into the Narada, all the red matter was used up. His means of destroying more planets are GONE. And if he plans to use other means, what the heck was he waiting for for 20+ years?

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks. He has no means to attack since he lost his weapon and he has no means of following his plans due to his sever injuries.

He had already escaped through a black hole before. Why would Kirk have risked him doing it again?
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Old January 25 2014, 09:28 PM   #54
Brutal Strudel
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

Nero destroyed a planet.

He intended to destroy more.

He had the means to do it.
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed. If you look close enough, you'll see the Narada is literally torn apart, not to mention being already cut in half.

And his means to destroy more planets? The moment Spock crashed the Jellyfish into the Narada, all the red matter was used up. His means of destroying more planets are GONE. And if he plans to use other means, what the heck was he waiting for for 20+ years?

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks. He has no means to attack since he lost his weapon and he has no means of following his plans due to his sever injuries.
QFT. I would only add "on the possibility that the defenseless, wounded murder might one day get well enough to kill somebody else.
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Old January 25 2014, 10:44 PM   #55
sonak
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

Nero destroyed a planet.

He intended to destroy more.

He had the means to do it.
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed. If you look close enough, you'll see the Narada is literally torn apart, not to mention being already cut in half.

And his means to destroy more planets? The moment Spock crashed the Jellyfish into the Narada, all the red matter was used up. His means of destroying more planets are GONE. And if he plans to use other means, what the heck was he waiting for for 20+ years?

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks. He has no means to attack since he lost his weapon and he has no means of following his plans due to his sever injuries.
QFT. I would only add "on the possibility that the defenseless, wounded murder might one day get well enough to kill somebody else.

er, actually that's a pretty good reason to kill him. Especially since he's no run of the mill murderer, he's a genocidal one who's killed BILLIONS. Since the military is somewhat akin to the police, Nero would have been under a "shoot on sight" order for war crimes against the Federation. What Kirk did was lawful and ethical.
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Old January 25 2014, 11:05 PM   #56
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed.

[...]

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks.
Well, if Nero was certainly in the process of being destroyed, as you said he was, then it's not really unethical to go ahead and fire weapons on him, is it? Or, is he not really in the process of being destroyed, but rather just trapped? Which is it?
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Old January 26 2014, 07:12 AM   #57
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

Nero destroyed a planet.

He intended to destroy more.

He had the means to do it.
Uh, Nero wasn't fleeing. He was in the process of being destroyed. If you look close enough, you'll see the Narada is literally torn apart, not to mention being already cut in half.

And his means to destroy more planets? The moment Spock crashed the Jellyfish into the Narada, all the red matter was used up. His means of destroying more planets are GONE. And if he plans to use other means, what the heck was he waiting for for 20+ years?

This is less a cop shooting a fleeing murderer and more of a cop shooting an unarmed murderer who is trapped and injured under some rocks. He has no means to attack since he lost his weapon and he has no means of following his plans due to his sever injuries.
Are you absolutely sure that Nero had no way of escape? Are you absolutely sure that Ayel didn't have a store of Red Matter somewhere else on the ship. Or a shuttle capable of drilling.

If maybe Spock had melded with Nero and discovered that they were indeed unarmed and wouldn't use their last remaining weapons on them then maybe just maybe you could save them despite themselves.
However Kirk wasn't in the position to do this and it was his duty to protect the rest of the Federation.

And Kirk (relunctantly) was forced to kill his friend Gary Mitchell and try to kill Charlie X not because they were nonredeemable but because they were too dangerous. In each case Spock was the one who saw the logic of the situation and convinced Kirk to do it.
And I think Picard should have put the virus in Hugh. If that could have worked billions might have been saved. The billions and billions taken over by the Borg in the Delta Quadrant after Picard had not made the tough decision.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:27 AM   #58
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Serious question: Did you think Section 31 was right in using biological warfare against the Founders? Do you think the Federation Council was right in denying the cure to the Founders while the Dominion War was still underway?
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Old January 26 2014, 07:37 AM   #59
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Serious question: Did you think Section 31 was right in using biological warfare against the Founders? Do you think the Federation Council was right in denying the cure to the Founders while the Dominion War was still underway?
You're talking about the differences between two groups; between Kirk/Picard, and a governing body. The first group had very little time to make a decision about the disposition of an overwhelmingly powerful enemy that would kill again and again and again without fail.

The second group has days, weeks, months to come to a decision and formulate a strategy.

These aren't even comparable situations.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:49 AM   #60
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

The way one answers each question clarifies one's underlying ethical framework and need not be the "same" in each issue--when I was a young trekkie, I defended Kirk's killing of Kruge in the pages of the old letterzine Interstat against fans who found that to be a violation of Kirk's character. I used the same distinction I made above. Personally, I think the Federation was wrong to withold the cure--I agreed with Odo, but I also think Helo was wrong to sabotage the Apollo and Adama's plan to wipe out the Cylons with the virus discovered in the ancient probe from the Thirteenth Colony. Other fans on the BBS argued against me. I'm not to trying to score points; I honestly want to know where she draws the line.

Oh, and I think Picard should have gone through with deploying the logic bomb virus in "I, Borg," too.
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