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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 4 2014, 01:05 AM   #331
BillJ
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It just boggles the mind how much tap dancing some folks will do to excuse the action of one character over another.
As you yourself said, apples and oranges.
I think Star Trek VI actually casts Kirk in a bad light because there was no doubt that Chang couldn't harm anyone else. They could have easily (if he survived the initial torpedo) taken him into custody. But no one even makes the offer.

Not Kirk.

Not Sulu.

They simply poured it on until the Bird of Prey was dust.

And I enjoyed it. It was the climax of the interplay between Kirk and Chang and Chang lost.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:22 AM   #332
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

In my mind, the Abramsverse films moral compass is no more faulty than what we saw in the Prime timeline. Sisko taking part in unethical deeds to draw the Romulans into the Dominion war, Janeway executing Tuvix so she could get back Tuvok and Neelix or Archer stealing warp coils from hapless aliens so he could continue on his mission to locate the Xindi weapon.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:29 AM   #333
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think Star Trek VI actually casts Kirk in a bad light because there was no doubt that Chang couldn't harm anyone else. They could have easily (if he survived the initial torpedo) taken him into custody. But no one even makes the offer.
This is one (of a few) things that bothered me about TUC. Yes, we all love explosions, but wouldn't that ship be sort of important to capture intact? Isn't its existence and the fact of its design and manufacture about to figure in the trials of the bad guys they do take into custody? It does seem like that ought to have occurred to someone.

(ST09 actually presents less of a moral-compass problem, but insofar as the story, the setting and the version of Starfleet it presents makes zero sense at any point. When there are few or no discernible rules, you can justify pretty much anything.)
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Old February 4 2014, 01:35 AM   #334
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote: View Post

(ST09 actually presents less of a moral-compass problem, but insofar as the story, the setting and the version of Starfleet it presents makes zero sense at any point. When there are few or no discernible rules, you can justify pretty much anything.)
There is nothing in the films that point to there being no or few discernible rules. All the things Kirk/Spock got away with in the Prime timeline would make me think that there is also few or no discernible rules in that version of Starfleet.

Kirk abducted the head of a Federation member world ("The Cloud Minders"), Spock stole the Enterprise ("The Menagerie"). Then you add in all the times Kirk skirted the Prime Directive. Using Jim Kirk as a barometer of Starfleet rules and regulations in any timeline is a mistake.

Heck, Picard violated the Prime Directive nine times in his first four years as Captain of the Enterprise per "The Drumhead". Sisko contaminated a planetary biosphere.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:36 AM   #335
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote:
the story, the setting and the version of Starfleet it presents makes zero sense at any point.
Could you elaborate?
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Old February 4 2014, 01:47 AM   #336
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote:
There is nothing in the films that point to there being no or few discernible rules.
When I say rules, I mean in the setting as a whole: physics, narrative coherency, the science-y bits that are deliberately fluffed, all that stuff. When red matter and black holes function however the script says either functions from moment to moment, there is no meaningful way to discuss "plot" points tied to either one. There is nothing to know or to deduce about what Jim Kirk does in any alternative situation.

(Although yes, Starfleet also has suspiciously few rules in ST09 -- just think back to the last "promoting a cadet to Captain" conversation you had, I'm sure you'll recollect the usual objections. Actually STiD was better on this score for... well, for the first half hour or so, anyway, sort of...)
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Old February 4 2014, 01:52 AM   #337
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
After the first hit, Chang never launches another shot.
I think it would be difficult for Chang to fire another torpedo since that "first hit" blew up the entire bridge. Also, the president is about to be assassinated which might end up starting a galactic war with the Klingons. I think that's a lot better than "Let's kill him before the black hole does!"
Once the first shot hit nothing prevented Kirk from breaking off his attack since the Excelsior was on the scene. He wanted that satisfaction of obliterating Chang.

It just boggles the mind how much tap dancing some folks will do to excuse the action of one character over another.
I don't recall being offended by that particular decision - possibly because it is a heat of battle decision without a pause to parlay. The ship is still cloaked so the characters can't be sure how much of a threat the ship remains and there is no line underscoring the fact that the ship is no longer a threat. You can't beam people off a cloaked ship.

As I've aid before, my issue isn't with the fact that Nero was destroyed it was the tone of the whole scene. It was described as 'glib' earlier and that's accurate. Kirk does exhibit exhilaration when he defeats a tough foe on many other occasions. He loves a challenge and he doesn't like to lose. He doesn't traditionally take pot shots at a foe that he's already defeated though.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:53 AM   #338
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote: View Post

When I say rules, I mean in the setting as a whole: physics, narrative coherency, the science-y bits that are deliberately fluffed, all that stuff. When red matter and black holes function however the script says either functions from moment to moment, there is no meaningful way to discuss "plot" points tied to either one.
I'd point to the Genesis Device as being every bit as incoherent as Red Matter. I'd also point to wildly inconsistent warp speeds as well. Then there's wildly inconsistent weapons.

The Abramsverse films are no more guilty of "rules" non-sense than any other part of the franchise.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:54 AM   #339
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote:
There is nothing in the films that point to there being no or few discernible rules.
When I say rules, I mean in the setting as a whole: physics, narrative coherency, the science-y bits that are deliberately fluffed, all that stuff. When red matter and black holes function however the script says either functions from moment to moment, there is no meaningful way to discuss "plot" points tied to either one. There is nothing to know or to deduce about what Jim Kirk does in any alternative situation.

(Although yes, Starfleet also has suspiciously few rules in ST09 -- just think back to the last "promoting a cadet to Captain" conversation you had, I'm sure you'll recollect the usual objections. Actually STiD was better on this score for... well, for the first half hour or so, anyway, sort of...)
Promoting ensign with one year's experience as a navigator to chief engineer? It's tradition!
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Old February 4 2014, 01:57 AM   #340
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I don't recall being offended by that particular decision - possibly because it is a heat of battle decision without a pause to parlay. The ship is still cloaked so the characters can't be sure how much of a threat the ship remains and there is no line underscoring the fact that the ship is no longer a threat. You can't beam people off a cloaked ship.
The Bird-of-Prey is clearly visible once the first torpedo hits.


As I've aid before, my issue isn't with the fact that Nero was destroyed it was the tone of the whole scene. It was described as 'glib' earlier and that's accurate. Kirk does exhibit exhilaration when he defeats a tough foe on many other occasions. He loves a challenge and he doesn't like to lose. He doesn't traditionally take pot shots at a foe that he's already defeated though.
I don't mind Kirk taking satisfaction at Nero's demise. He offered aid and the aid was rejected. The best thing to do at that point is too make sure Nero doesn't somehow survive another trip through the black hole.
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Old February 4 2014, 01:57 AM   #341
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

When I say rules, I mean in the setting as a whole: physics, narrative coherency, the science-y bits that are deliberately fluffed, all that stuff. When red matter and black holes function however the script says either functions from moment to moment, there is no meaningful way to discuss "plot" points tied to either one.
I'd point to the Genesis Device as being every bit as incoherent as Red Matter. I'd also point to wildly inconsistent warp speeds as well. Then there's wildly inconsistent weapons.

The Abramsverse films are no more guilty of "rules" non-sense than any other part of the franchise.
Lol. Yeah but I slagged off those at the time as well. By the book Mister Saavik!
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Old February 4 2014, 01:58 AM   #342
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Promoting ensign with one year's experience as a navigator to chief engineer? It's tradition!
It's entertainment. I'd rather have a character I know down there than introduce a no-name that we never hear from again after the crisis is over.
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Old February 4 2014, 02:01 AM   #343
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I don't recall being offended by that particular decision - possibly because it is a heat of battle decision without a pause to parlay. The ship is still cloaked so the characters can't be sure how much of a threat the ship remains and there is no line underscoring the fact that the ship is no longer a threat. You can't beam people off a cloaked ship.
The Bird-of-Prey is clearly visible once the first torpedo hits.
Well, it's a special effect. The line of dialogue is something like 'target that explosion'. The dialogue supports the notion that the ship could still be cloaked (plus if it warped away or uncloaked and raised shields it could still be a threat). It's a decision in the heat of battle supported by dialogue.

I would be fine if that was the same in NuTrek.
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Old February 4 2014, 02:04 AM   #344
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Promoting ensign with one year's experience as a navigator to chief engineer? It's tradition!
It's entertainment. I'd rather have a character I know down there than introduce a no-name that we never hear from again after the crisis is over.
And they did it to satisfy people like you so that does justify their decision. It didn't satisfy me because I prefer a higher degree of narrative logic. I rather enjoy supporting characters but besides that, Chekov did not have to be chief engineer to be the character who delivered the lines from engineering.
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Old February 4 2014, 02:06 AM   #345
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote:
When red matter and black holes function however the script says either functions from moment to moment, there is no meaningful way to discuss "plot" points tied to either one.
Huh? The film is internally consistent in this area. Red matter does the same thing each of the three times it is deployed in the film. Red matter black holes also appear to behave in a consistent fashion, as far as the viewer knows; we know that several intact ships were sent back in time and their passengers survived the trip, while we do not have the same level of assurance in the markedly different circumstances of a singularity being created within the ship and tearing it apart in the process ( though the discussions in this thread alone demonstrate that to many viewers time travel was not ruled out even then ).

BigJake wrote:
When I say rules, I mean in the setting as a whole: physics, narrative coherency, the science-y bits that are deliberately fluffed, all that stuff.
But how does this go to the film allegedly not making sense at any point, except as hyperbole for shock value?
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