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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 31 2014, 02:16 AM   #226
BillJ
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
If the film did a better job of addressing that "Captain, we can't risk the possibility of letting him enter another alternate universe", sure. As it is, he's dead in the water by that point and has no means to harm anyone.
Why does the film need to spell out what my six-year old was able to piece together?
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Old January 31 2014, 02:21 AM   #227
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

To make it clear that Kirk considered all options and only shot them down as a LAST RESORT. It's never treated that way, and I dislike how flippant they come off shooting them down. It would have gone a long way just to show that Kirk wanted to make it a priority of saving them, and the way they go about it isn't enough.
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Old January 31 2014, 02:32 AM   #228
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
To make it clear that Kirk considered all options and only shot them down as a LAST RESORT. It's never treated that way, and I dislike how flippant they come off shooting them down. It would have gone a long way just to show that Kirk wanted to make it a priority of saving them, and the way they go about it isn't enough.
It wasn't enough for you. For me, I didn't need a long painful debate nor did I need Kirk to be angsty over sending Nero on to the whatever lays beyond death. The guy was a genocidal madman who killed more than six billions beings including children.

Kirk went further than I would have, I think he went further than most rational beings would have. Honestly, I agreed with Spock. Put the mad dog down.
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Old January 31 2014, 02:42 AM   #229
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
If the film did a better job of addressing that "Captain, we can't risk the possibility of letting him enter another alternate universe", sure. As it is, he's dead in the water by that point and has no means to harm anyone.
Are you 100% certain that it was made clear in the movie that Nero had no means to harm anyone anymore. Because I never saw that.
Its like a policeman letting a serial killer escape whose seriously wounded because he wouldn't surrender (except many times worse). Of course the killer may never kill again but are you going to take that risk?
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Old January 31 2014, 02:50 AM   #230
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
Why does the film need to spell out what my six-year old was able to piece together?
For God's sake man, there are three-year-olds to consider!!!
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Old January 31 2014, 03:32 AM   #231
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Cowboy Diplomacy!

It's been stated many times already, the Narada was being pulled into the singularity. Nobody witnessing the event could guarantee what they were seeing did not amount to a possible 'escape' by the Narada to heaven knows where/when.

Could anyone calling for Kirk's head on a platter for his lack of mercy in his place live with themselves if it became known after the fact that the Narada may have survived its plunge to wreak havoc on some other time and place?
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Old January 31 2014, 03:51 AM   #232
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
If the film did a better job of addressing that "Captain, we can't risk the possibility of letting him enter another alternate universe", sure. As it is, he's dead in the water by that point and has no means to harm anyone.
Are you 100% certain that it was made clear in the movie that Nero had no means to harm anyone anymore. Because I never saw that.
Its like a policeman letting a serial killer escape whose seriously wounded because he wouldn't surrender (except many times worse). Of course the killer may never kill again but are you going to take that risk?
You're reading it wrong. When I said he had no means to harm anyone, I'm saying that he has no means to harm the Enterprise. At that very moment, he was no longer a threat. To take your police man analogy further, no, I do not want Kirk to let Nero escape, I want him to capture Nero. They have transporters to beam him up and put him in the brig, why not use them? It's never brought up for consideration.

But as I said earlier, I'm not against the idea of Kirk shooting up the Narada and killing Nero, I'm just against the way it was executed (pardon the pun). I would have preferred it if Kirk went with that order treated as a last resort, that for a moment he gives it some thought and realizes that it's the only sensible option because they can't transport him and he wants to give Nero a quick death instead of enduring a slow one from the singularity (which had crippled his ship beyond repair, given that it's all happening from WITHIN the ship).

To the real point, I want Kirk to be thoughtful about his decisions, not act so flippantly "you've got it!" just to get the audience all pumped up over the hero killing the villain, "YEAH GET HIM, BOOM BOOM BLOW HIM UP!!!".
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Old January 31 2014, 04:07 AM   #233
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
If the film did a better job of addressing that "Captain, we can't risk the possibility of letting him enter another alternate universe", sure. As it is, he's dead in the water by that point and has no means to harm anyone.
Are you 100% certain that it was made clear in the movie that Nero had no means to harm anyone anymore. Because I never saw that.
Its like a policeman letting a serial killer escape whose seriously wounded because he wouldn't surrender (except many times worse). Of course the killer may never kill again but are you going to take that risk?

To the real point, I want Kirk to be thoughtful about his decisions, not act so flippantly "you've got it!" just to get the audience all pumped up over the hero killing the villain, "YEAH GET HIM, BOOM BOOM BLOW HIM UP!!!".
Agreed. That was really one of my pet peeves. That and in ST:ID, Uhura saying "Go get him!"

Dumb flippant action writing.

I'm not slamming the two movies by the way.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:35 AM   #234
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Apologists can make whatever excuses they like...
While it may fall short of being an outright flame, the word "apologists"—when used in the context of talking about Trek—always seems to read as if it's intended as a putdown. At the very least, it has the effect of making one sound as if one might be taking Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry's Vision™ a little too seriously. Please consider before choosing to use that word in this forum again, won't you?

Thanks.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:43 AM   #235
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

I got carried away, because a lot of times it seems folks will defend anything in these films or at least give it a pass because they think the film is fun and shouldn't be criticized, an overreaction to the flamers who always bash whatever happens in these films no matter what. At least, that's what it seems to me. If "apologists" comes off as a putdown for some folks, I suppose "Abramsverse enthusiasts" will suffice.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:17 AM   #236
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Does nuTrek really have a moral compass?

I mean it expresses tribal morality (looking after your own peeps - the virtue of bros looking out for their bros), it gestures at the importance of teamwork and following rules (even though Kirk is rewarded for breaking the rules too, and his rule-breaking often turns out to be "correct"), and there is lip-service paid to the prime directive, but this Trek isn't really preoccupied with morality as of yet.

Maybe the next film will present a moral dilemma, but so far it has been the good guys working to stop crazy revenge-driven bad guys.

At any rate, I don't see "bad morality" as a reason to object to the last two films, as they weren't really moral exercises.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:31 AM   #237
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

And that is the one departure from TOS--conceived of and its best when it told complex morality plays that didn't treat killing lightly--that is truly galling.
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Old January 31 2014, 06:51 AM   #238
Set Harth
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

YARN wrote: View Post
but this Trek isn't really preoccupied with morality as of yet.
Brutal Strudel wrote:
And that is the one departure from TOS--conceived of and its best when it told complex morality plays that didn't treat killing lightly--that is truly galling.
You missed the part where Spock judged Kirk's orders to be immoral and Kirk later defied them?
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Old January 31 2014, 07:16 AM   #239
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
but this Trek isn't really preoccupied with morality as of yet.
Brutal Strudel wrote:
And that is the one departure from TOS--conceived of and its best when it told complex morality plays that didn't treat killing lightly--that is truly galling.
You missed the part where Spock judged Kirk's orders to be immoral and Kirk later defied them?
Huh, the part where Kirk defied his own orders?
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Old January 31 2014, 07:30 AM   #240
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

His orders meaning orders given to him.
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