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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 29 2014, 10:48 AM   #196
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
Well, Nero wasn't a threat because he's not a real person.

The question is rather whether Abrams intended to still make him look like a threat that moment.
I don't think it's very useful to expect everyone to frame their comments and questions this way, given that everybody here knows that Star Trek is fiction.

YARN wrote: View Post
If you don't have ideas to offer and explore, you don't have sci-fi, but simply action-adventure in a technological setting.
There's a difference ? I mean, isn't fiction a kind of idea exploration anyway ? And aren't most of those ideas present throughout all genres ?
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Old January 29 2014, 04:51 PM   #197
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

RPJOB wrote: View Post
If we accept that Kirk fired on Nero because he honestly felt that he could escape through the wormhole then we also have to consider the probability that the same thing actually happened to Vulcan and Nero didn't actually kill everyone on the planet. Perhaps Vulcan was just shifted to an alternate universe and/or back in time. Reasonable doubt works both ways.

When Spock and Nero travelled back in time, they both entered a black hole that was created by red matter. When the Narenda was being destroyed at the end of the movie, the black hole was inside the ship. We saw it being bent, torn and crumpled. If the Narenda could reasonably be expected to survive passage through a black hole to the extent that Nero and his crew would survive then the same should apply to Vulcan. We also saw it being distorted. Perhaps a red matter black hole tears apart whatever falls into it but then reassembles it on the other side. Much like a transporter would reassemble you and not move you whole from one spot to the other.

If Kirk had reasonable doubt that Nero would die then Nero could use the same defense. Kirk had no proof that Nero killed everyone on the planet and then destroyed the planet. Never having encountered red matter black holes before the on;y thing that he could say for sure was that they transport objects back in time. For all we know everyone on Vulcan is fine, even the guy that got flattened by the statue. When you emerge out the other side, time runs backwards and you end up exactly in the same physical state you were when you first entered the black hole.
First, if Vulcan was simply transported, it's a Planet. If it ended up in a Goldilocks Zone (Especially, if it ended up in it's own Space/orbit), there's already a planet there, either one, or both planets will be destroyed when Vulcan from JJVerse arrives. If it doesn't arrive in a Goldilocks zone, they're gonna die a slow painful death

Second as far as Nero/The Nerada surviving, it's not just about Nero, it's the ship as well, and any technology. How screwed up can a timeline become with that kind of technology dropping out of the future for any old Despotic race to find? That, in itself, could be at least as bad and cause as much death as Nero
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Old January 29 2014, 08:22 PM   #198
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Yep. there's no way out of the circle. Just a way into a new circle. But I agree with the things that people have said. A genuine attempt to avoid killing because it's wrong would have been nice.
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Old January 29 2014, 08:35 PM   #199
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Except that we saw Vulcan crumble to pieces. Saying it was reassembled on the other side has no merit, since there is no way to test the theory. Yet even if that were a viable theory, for all we know Vulcan could have been reassembled in an alternate liquid universe, and everyone instantly died from severe radiation poisoning upon arrival.

All we know is that from what we saw, billions of innocents died, and the madman who did it so casually, tried to do it again to another planet full of billions, and had plans to further destabilize the Federation with untold billions of lives in the balance.

Even though the Narada was breaking apart, there's no reason to assume it wasn't making it out the other side, because it had traversed the singularity before, and had come out whole. A hypothesis could be made that small enough objects could pass through the singularity without being destroyed. There simply is no way to know, especially not when one is in the heat of battle, the enemy has refused to surrender, and has no intention of ever stopping his killing spree.

This means you have to go on the available data, which is:

* Nero is an absolute and imminent threat to all life forms.
* Nero's ship is extremely powerful, capable of destroying multiple starships without sustaining damage.
* Nero's ship passed through a singularity once, and may be able to do so again.
* Nero's ship is still an unknown quantity, and may contain weapons or devices as yet unknown.
* There is no time left to assess the possible capabilities of his ship due to being in a situation requiring immediate action lest your ship may be destroyed.
* Nero has rejected any form of offered assistance.

It's nice to play the what-if game, but at the end of the day, Kirk still took the only real course of action available to him.
Exactly how I feel about this movie and what the hero did, and also about what was done in Man Of Steel with Superman & Zod.
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Old January 29 2014, 09:21 PM   #200
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

sonak wrote: View Post
I guess I just don't see how killing an opponent in battle who is a genocidal war criminal after offering to let him surrender is "bloodthirsty," though.
Really, the battle was over. It's one thing if it's in the heat of battle, but they stopped and had time to collect themselves apparently. I think they should've just omitted the offer, and once the Jellyfish collided then they should have opened fire. Once the characters stop to deliberate about it, it becomes more like an execution.
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Old January 29 2014, 10:34 PM   #201
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

sonak wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


In other words, if we disagree with you about the scenario, we're the type of audience that cheers at kewl 'splosions and wets our pants with laughter when someone farts on screen.
Well, obviously not, if that's your interpretation of the scene. I think you're being more judgmental than I am about other people's opinions. I simply meant that the writers didn't come up with their idea in a vacuum. People like bloodthirsty heroes. I do too. However, I am glad that STiD back pedalled away from that path.

Also - I laugh (loudly) at all the Scary Movie spoofs. Don't knock fart jokes.

I guess I just don't see how killing an opponent in battle who is a genocidal war criminal after offering to let him surrender is "bloodthirsty," though. Kirk is a member of an organization that at least has military duties. He MUST have expected to have to go into battle and possibly kill those who pose a threat.
Not to mention said organization gives him the authority to glass entire planets.
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Old January 30 2014, 12:39 AM   #202
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I never suggested Kirk try to rescue Nero and his crew by force.

And, to me, the implication was that the Narada was, most likely, doomed. A line of dialogue contradicting that would have been nice. One stinking line.

I'd also get rid of Kirk and Spock's exchange about why Kirk offers clemency.To curry favor with the 23rd Century Romulans? How about because whenever Kirk had the chance to "not kill today," he took it, even if he desperately wanted to kill. And I'd make Spock's satisfaction at the Narada's demise the thing that is implied; I think Quinto could have wordlessly played the internal struggle between his civilized and savage sides by simply looking on impassively as the ship broke apart under Kirk's attack.
Yup. People are right to say that not everything needs to be spelled out but it was things like body language and tone of voice that added to the my discomfort in the scene as shown. This is wrong but it feels so right is better than three cheers and a promotion for the summary execution of Nero and all the prisoners on his ship!

Kirk's decision to beat up Khan after he'd surrendered is on a different level but it's a similar issue. Police officers who beat up suspects after arrest, many of whom have committed terrible crimes, would open themselves up to prosecution for assault. Two wrongs don't make a right!
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Old January 30 2014, 12:53 AM   #203
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

It's not that Nero and Khan deserve mercy. They deserve death. But civilization deserves merciful protectors.
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Old January 30 2014, 01:04 AM   #204
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Some thoughts:

I think Kirk intended to destroy Narada anyway. Since Nero refused rescue, well, too bad. FIRE!

There was no way at the time Kirk could have known they would be caught in the singularity's gravity. If he had, he might have hightailed it out of there sooner.

In STID, Kirk tried to beat the crap out of Khan because he was overwhelmed with anger. Since he already had authorization to kill him, no big deal. And that's what it was to Khan. No big deal. The same with Spock later. But that time, if Uhura hadn't shown up when she did, Khan might have killed Spock. We don't know for sure.

Overall, even with Kirk's inexperience thus far, he still tries to do the right thing. His methods are still questionable at this point, but his motives are honorable.

In the next movie they will probably show Kirk as more measured, if still unorthodox. And Spock will be more in control of his human side and not go off half cocked at the drop of a hat.

And that's what I'm thinking.
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Old January 30 2014, 01:19 AM   #205
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Some thoughts:

I think Kirk intended to destroy Narada anyway. Since Nero refused rescue, well, too bad. FIRE!

There was no way at the time Kirk could have known they would be caught in the singularity's gravity. If he had, he might have hightailed it out of there sooner.

In STID, Kirk tried to beat the crap out of Khan because he was overwhelmed with anger. Since he already had authorization to kill him, no big deal. And that's what it was to Khan. No big deal. The same with Spock later. But that time, if Uhura hadn't shown up when she did, Khan might have killed Spock. We don't know for sure.

Overall, even with Kirk's inexperience thus far, he still tries to do the right thing. His methods are still questionable at this point, but his motives are honorable.

In the next movie they will probably show Kirk as more measured, if still unorthodox. And Spock will be more in control of his human side and not go off half cocked at the drop of a hat.

And that's what I'm thinking.
I would agree that, for all the complaints, the progression of the characters, with the probable exceptions of Chekov, Chapel, and Rand have been reasonably well done so far. I feel with Chekov they just don't know what to do with him so they just do everything and see what sticks.
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Old January 30 2014, 01:38 AM   #206
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
It's not that Nero and Khan deserve mercy. They deserve death. But civilization deserves merciful protectors.
I don't doubt that if Nero would have said "yes, please save us," that Kirk and Spock would have made a real effort to save them. One can despise another person for their actions, but act to save them when they call for help. That said, I think Kirk knew Nero would say no.
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Old January 30 2014, 03:42 PM   #207
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

My moral dilemmas in STID are:

1. Kirk punching out a prisoner

2. The proposal of killing Khan with 72 missiles


Yes Kirk punching out a prisoner was wrong but really who looked bad - just Kirk. Khan didn't care. Kirk was beneath his contempt. I suppose its meant to show us Kirk was pretty volatile, Khan was a superhuman and how Kirk felt about Pike's death.

I'm going to give you the condensed version of how stupid the 72-missile thing was on everyone's side. Marcus was stupid for putting 72 super-missiles in Kirk's control. And why would Kirk fire all 72 missiles anyway? And where was he going to aim them? And was he going to destroy a section of planet without checking if it was occupied (which it was)? Did Kirk think the Klingons were going to sit by while he stayed on the edge of the neutral zone and lobbed missiles at their planets?

I was thinking it was very wrong for Kirk to even entertain Marcus's proposal. But you know when you're in the military sometimes you have to follow orders from the upper echelons without question because TPTB might be in the know about something. It just happened that Marcus was corrupt. But if he wasn't then Kirk was duty bound to follow through as was his crew including Scott.
PrimeScott would have followed Kirk's order's no matter what unless he considered him insane (Turnabout Intruder). In Taste of Armageddon he was prepared to raze a planet on Kirk's orders. He trusted Kirk to make the right decisions when he was in his right mind.
I had thought that Prime Kirk would never obey a dodgy command order but I considered 'Enterprise Incident' where he and Spock stole the cloaking device from the Romulans. As far as we know this wasn't a desperate act to save the Federation from destruction but something thought of to keep the balance of power. I think in the 60s it was considered justifiable to commit espionage if you were on the side of 'good'. But know it seems to me that Kirk's actions in that episode were morally wrong. Perhaps as morally wrong as the potential deploying of deep range missiles into Klingon Sovereign Territory in STID.
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Old January 30 2014, 04:02 PM   #208
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Torpedo, not missile.
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Old January 30 2014, 04:52 PM   #209
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
But know it seems to me that Kirk's actions in that episode were morally wrong. Perhaps as morally wrong as the potential deploying of deep range missiles into Klingon Sovereign Territory in STID.
Yeah I mean its not like the last time the Romulans got an advantage with cloaking technology they went around lauching unprovoked attacks that ended up blowing up Federation Outposts for the purposes of seeing if another war with the federation was feasible, and that their new undetectable cloaking device might cause them to try again....

Oh wait thats exactly what happened.
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Old January 30 2014, 05:10 PM   #210
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
But know it seems to me that Kirk's actions in that episode were morally wrong. Perhaps as morally wrong as the potential deploying of deep range missiles into Klingon Sovereign Territory in STID.
Yeah I mean its not like the last time the Romulans got an advantage with cloaking technology they went around lauching unprovoked attacks that ended up blowing up Federation Outposts for the purposes of seeing if another war with the federation was feasible, and that their new undetectable cloaking device might cause them to try again....

Oh wait thats exactly what happened.
Well if they might try again then you're morally justified in stealing all their military secrets just in case.

James T Kirk whipped their butts and chased them down when they destroyed the Federation outposts. The only other time they had trouble with the Romulans in TOS was when the Enterprise invaded the Neutral Zone. OK and the 3rd incident was also when the Enterprise was in the wrong.

My evidence that the cloaking device was unecessary was that the Federation never used it again in TOS and that even in the TOS movies they still couldn't detect a 'cloaked' ship without improvisation.
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