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Old June 9 2014, 08:44 PM   #76
Wingsley
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Oops...when I saw the thread title I thought this was a reference to The Making of Star Trek according to which the members of the Enterprise Starship Class had already been 40 years in service by the time of TOS!

Fact is that the ship sustained heavy damage in the second pilot "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and next (the VFX model) underwent some noticable design changes, thus I never really dismissed the possibility that the "new" Enterprise seen in "The Corbomite Maneuver" could have been a new ship.

From a retroactive point of view that could explain Admiral Morrow's "20 years old" remark in ST III (though I still think that was a stupid line. Khan had severely damaged the Enterprise in TWOK, so if Harve Bennett wanted a plausible reason to have her decommissioned he should have better taken another look at the previous film...)

Bob
What page number in "The Making of Star Trek" is the 40-year-old remark printed on? Id like to review it.

I agree that Morrow's remark in TMP3 about the Enterprise (herself) being 20 years old was silly. But I have a theory about that: obviously the technology that went into the TMP refit was extensive. Capt. Decker even told Kirk that the refit made the ship "almost totally new". If, for sake of argument, we consider the refit to have taken place in the later-half of the 2270's, and if the technology that went into the refit was indeed so ground-breaking, then it is possible that the development of its design (and the design of its component technologies) was started as far back as the 2260s.

So if the hull # 1701 Enterprise was destroyed say, in 2286, but development of the TMP refit / development of the TMP refit's technologies started at the beginning of TOS, then it is not out of line to say that the 1701's technology was, say, 20 years old in the eyes of the Federation's top brass. After all, they were expressing a lot of faith in the newer-tech of the Excelsior which was supposed to blow the doors off the Enterprise.
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Old June 10 2014, 01:09 AM   #77
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Harry Morrow was Kirk's friend (probably from when he first became an Admiral, if not earlier). He was trying to spare Jim's feelings. What he was really saying (in a subtle way that Kirk would get, but wouldn't publicly embarrass him in front of his shipmates) was "Jim, you've been attached to the Enterprise for 20 years, more or less. It's time to let her go. You're in your fifties, you're an Admiral and a schoolteacher now. The Excelsior is coming out, a new generation is taking charge. We (meaning the Admiralty) feel her day - and your day as a captain - is over." That's why he made a point of saying 20 years and not 40 - because that's how long ago Kirk took command.

That's probably also part of the reason the Enterprise was decommissioned, in addition to her age and banged-up state. "We're never gonna get this guy settled down as long as that damn ship's around."
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Old June 10 2014, 01:50 AM   #78
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

^Then why didn't Morrow just say, "You've been the Enterprise's captain for twenty years; we feel that it's time for the both of you to move on," instead of, "The Enterprise is twenty years old; we feel her day is over?"

I don't think Morrow was at all trying to spare Jim's feelings. He was making a statement of fact about the age of the Enterprise and how Starfleet feels about the ship. The fact that he got the Enterprise's age wrong was just sloppy writing.
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Old June 10 2014, 03:41 AM   #79
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Timo wrote: View Post
You're thinking of Romulans.
There weren't any Romulans to fight in the movies.
There were in TOS, when the Klingons made four appearances without ever using the cloaking device (the Romulans made three, cloaking all three times).

What "unless"? How could Picard catch Lursa and B'Etor doing illegal things by going way back in time?
By arresting Soran on the observatory and/or shooting down the Sisters they showed up to collect him (now that he knows they're there). Or by simply confiscating his solar probes so the sisters couldn't get access to it.

Picard has no idea when Soran provided the Klingons with their doomsday missiles
Of course he does: after the observatory but before Viridian-III. He knows this because Soran didn't launch the probe from their bird of prey, he had to launch it from the observatory itself. Which means the weapon wasn't actually COMPLETED prior to that point, apparently because Soran only recently got access to a quantity of stolen trilithium from the Romulans.

Oh, Picard could again confiscate the stuff on flimsy charges at an earlier timepoint, assuming he could convince somebody to help him out with apprehending Soran.
Why would he have to convince somebody? He's Captain of the USS Enterprise, with a crew that has seen WAY too much weird shit to doubt his time-travel story. Much less so if he shows up on the bridge with:

"Attention everyone. I've just arrived from a temporal nexus that transported me seven days into the past in order to stop a madman from launching a doomsday weapon that will destroy several hundred million innocent people. Set course for the Amagosa observatory, warp six. Also, yes, the man standing behind me is Captain James T. Kirk. Autograph signing will be in half an hour. Engage!"

And what's wrong with the "lucky shot" thing? Space battles are boring.
And technobabble is really exciting, yes?

I'm gonna quote a passage here, see if you can guess the book:

Q:How much
science fiction terminology do you want?

A: The less you use, the better. We limit complex terminology as much as possible, use it only where necessary to maintain the flavor of the show and encourage believability.
IMPORTANT: The writer must know what he means when he uses
science or projected science terminology. A scattergun confusion of meaningless phrases only detracts from believability.
Space battles can be pretty damn exciting when they're done right. Technojibberish gimmicks do NOT fit that category.
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Old June 10 2014, 04:03 AM   #80
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
^Then why didn't Morrow just say, "You've been the Enterprise's captain for twenty years; we feel that it's time for the both of you to move on," instead of, "The Enterprise is twenty years old; we feel her day is over?"
Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"

Consider that this probably isn't happening in a vacuum, so there's a lot of loaded emotion there when McCoy prefaces with "I'm your doctor and I'm your friend..." this means McCoy's opinion is not a popular, it's not one Kirk wants to hear, and it's probably going to get him into a lot of trouble if he really does it. Kirk knows it and McCoy knows it, but McCoy ALSO knows that Kirk is miserable without a ship to command. So his wrath of Khan line is basically this:

"Fuck the admiralty, go get yourself a ship."

I don't think Morrow was at all trying to spare Jim's feelings. He was making a statement of fact about the age of the Enterprise and how Starfleet feels about the ship.
I don't think he's trying to spare his feelings either, but I'm pretty sure he's trying to convince Kirk to get the fuck out of that chair and go fly a desk like everyone else wants him to do. I suspect this has a lot less to do with his age or even the age of the Enterprise than it does with Starfleet not really trusting Kirk and wanting to keep him out of trouble.

Let's face it: the Khan fiasco is the snowballing result of a bad decision Kirk made (and evidently didn't properly report to Starfleet, and was made worse by a combination of Kirk's cowboy attitude (not raising shields when he was supposed to) and his personal attachment to Doctor Marcus. Probably more damming is the destruction of Reliant and the detonation of the Genesis Device; the first is just a regrettable loss of material that could be justified by Khan's piracy, but the latter is an unfolding fiasco of which Kirk is the cosmic center.

Basically, they're pulling the "she's too old, Jim" card because it's a plausible way of keeping him the hell away from Genesis before he can make things even worse (and is also why Captain J.T. "By the Book" Esteban got to take David and Saavik on the Genesis Expedition).

More to the point, when Kirk later asks for the Enterprise back, Morrow jumps from one excuse after another (the Enterprise wouldn't stand the pounding! The Council won't like it!) and finally settles on "Think of your career."

That's when Kirk finally gets that Starfleet (or the Council, probably) doesn't want HIM SPECIFICALLY going back to Genesis and Morrow is trying really hard to come up with an excuse. Incidentally, Kirk's return to Genesis wound up creating exactly the kind of interstellar incident everyone was hoping to avoid, although in all fairness it wasn't actually his fault, and in even greater fairness putting him back in charge of a starship probably makes him a lot easier to control since they can now assign him to "Saturn ring patrol" or something until he retires.
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Old June 10 2014, 02:26 PM   #81
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"
But McCoy didn't know of Starfleet's plans to mothball the Enterprise.

]I don't think he's trying to spare his feelings either, but I'm pretty sure he's trying to convince Kirk to get the fuck out of that chair and go fly a desk like everyone else wants him to do. I suspect this has a lot less to do with his age or even the age of the Enterprise than it does with Starfleet not really trusting Kirk and wanting to keep him out of trouble.

Let's face it: the Khan fiasco is the snowballing result of a bad decision Kirk made (and evidently didn't properly report to Starfleet, and was made worse by a combination of Kirk's cowboy attitude (not raising shields when he was supposed to) and his personal attachment to Doctor Marcus. Probably more damming is the destruction of Reliant and the detonation of the Genesis Device; the first is just a regrettable loss of material that could be justified by Khan's piracy, but the latter is an unfolding fiasco of which Kirk is the cosmic center.

Basically, they're pulling the "she's too old, Jim" card because it's a plausible way of keeping him the hell away from Genesis before he can make things even worse (and is also why Captain J.T. "By the Book" Esteban got to take David and Saavik on the Genesis Expedition).

More to the point, when Kirk later asks for the Enterprise back, Morrow jumps from one excuse after another (the Enterprise wouldn't stand the pounding! The Council won't like it!) and finally settles on "Think of your career."

That's when Kirk finally gets that Starfleet (or the Council, probably) doesn't want HIM SPECIFICALLY going back to Genesis and Morrow is trying really hard to come up with an excuse. Incidentally, Kirk's return to Genesis wound up creating exactly the kind of interstellar incident everyone was hoping to avoid, although in all fairness it wasn't actually his fault, and in even greater fairness putting him back in charge of a starship probably makes him a lot easier to control since they can now assign him to "Saturn ring patrol" or something until he retires.
Ok, if that's your interpretation of Morrow's actions, fine. But that's a little too overly-complicated for me based on what I saw. Morrow didn't seem to give a shit about Kirk until Kirk started talking about going to Genesis. Morrow stated that it's illegal for anyone to go there, which was true. He then gave Kirk some good advice about not risking his career by doing something stupid while at the same time showing his complete ignorance and total lack of understanding towards one of the founding races of the Federation and their death rites.

I didn't see anything personal in Morrow's remarks, nor did I get the impression that Starfleet was keeping some sort of eye on Kirk. All I saw was some idiot admiral.
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Old June 10 2014, 02:52 PM   #82
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Wingsley wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Oops...when I saw the thread title I thought this was a reference to The Making of Star Trek according to which the members of the Enterprise Starship Class had already been 40 years in service by the time of TOS!
What page number in "The Making of Star Trek" is the 40-year-old remark printed on? Id like to review it.
Don't have the page number with me, but it's in the chapter "Mission and Men". It's the sentence where it says "The Enterprise-Class Starships have been in service for fourty years".

But I think we are looking at a premise that was changed by the time of "Is There In Truth No Beauty?":

KIRK: We mustn't keep the ambassador waiting. If you'll go with Mister Scott, I'm sure the two of you will have a great deal in common.
SCOTT: Aye, indeed. It's a rare privilege meeting one of the designers of the Enterprise.

Lawrence Marvick is in his thirties by the time of that episode. Assuming events in "The Cage" took place at least 15 years earlier would make Marvick some kind of Wunderkind participating in this Enterprise's design.

Somehow I have less difficulties believing that between Stardate 1313.8 ("Where No Man Has Gone Before") and Stardate 1329.1 ("Mudd's Women") the Pike-Enterprise was scraped (Galactic Barrier damage) and replaced with a new one, where Marvick participated in its design (increasing internal volume to accomodate 430 than just 203 crew members? ).

Bob
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Old June 10 2014, 06:01 PM   #83
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

It should be noted that a piece of engineering can be designed and redesigned, in part or even in whole, several times after it has been built. Both young Larry Marvick and the equally young Leah Brahms were supposedly involved in designing the engines of the respective Enterprises, and engine upgrades are among the more probable changes to an already built vessel!

(Indeed, in the Brahms case, we have MSD evidence that the E-D and the Yamato had different numbers of warp coils in their nacelles,possibly indicating upgrades or changes in the design.)

This is not to say that the premise couldn't have been changed back and forth in the world outside the Star Trek reality. Although I suspect any "premise" simply was ignored in the writing of this episode, and perhaps others as well.

The "redesign" in ST:TMP would certainly be so massive as to warrant Morrow's statement; perhaps we should also consider the possibility that the 2245 "launch" of the ship was but another redesign of a much older ship...

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Old June 10 2014, 07:40 PM   #84
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"
But McCoy didn't know of Starfleet's plans to mothball the Enterprise.
The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.

Morrow didn't seem to give a shit about Kirk until Kirk started talking about going to Genesis. Morrow stated that it's illegal for anyone to go there, which was true. He then gave Kirk some good advice about not risking his career by doing something stupid while at the same time showing his complete ignorance and total lack of understanding towards one of the founding races of the Federation and their death rites.
And yet, one has to wonder why Morrow personally went to the Enterprise to debrief Kirk and crew and offer them "extended shore leave." This before the crew even has a chance to get off the ship and stretch their legs. He is, as diplomatically as possible, telling them all to stand down and stay out of trouble.

It's kind of like a cop coming back from a really dubious assignment and having the chief tell him "Hey man, great job out there, we're all proud of you... um... so how about you go and take a nice long vacation for, like, six months? Leave your badge and gun here, just forget about work for a while, okay? Oh, that case you were working? Yeah, the Mayor's decided he wants his own people on it. So go home, cool your jets, don't do anything stupid."

I didn't see anything personal in Morrow's remarks, nor did I get the impression that Starfleet was keeping some sort of eye on Kirk.
I figured they were keeping an eye on EVERYONE. Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?
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Old June 11 2014, 12:02 AM   #85
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.
Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.

And yet, one has to wonder why Morrow personally went to the Enterprise to debrief Kirk and crew and offer them "extended shore leave." This before the crew even has a chance to get off the ship and stretch their legs. He is, as diplomatically as possible, telling them all to stand down and stay out of trouble.

It's kind of like a cop coming back from a really dubious assignment and having the chief tell him "Hey man, great job out there, we're all proud of you... um... so how about you go and take a nice long vacation for, like, six months? Leave your badge and gun here, just forget about work for a while, okay? Oh, that case you were working? Yeah, the Mayor's decided he wants his own people on it. So go home, cool your jets, don't do anything stupid."
Again, you're welcome to believe that interpretation of the scenes, but I don't see anything even close to concrete proof of this.

Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?
He was at the same bar because it served to plot of the film, not because there was any kind of conspiracy against Kirk and his crew.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:20 AM   #86
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.
Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.

Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?
He was at the same bar because it served to plot of the film, not because there was any kind of conspiracy against Kirk and his crew.
He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:42 AM   #87
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

trevanian wrote: View Post
He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.
You must have watched a different movie than I did, because I got none of that. Starfleet as an evil empire out to get Kirk and crew? Huh?
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Old June 11 2014, 11:47 AM   #88
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

trevanian wrote: View Post
He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.
What we can tell from the actual scene is that the Federation security undercover guy obviously didn't follow McCoy, but was already there (unless one wants to seriously claim that he saw where McCoy was heading, ran past him and grabbed a glass from the bar ).

I got the impression that somehow this bar was known to Federation security to be a place for illegal activities. So instead it wasn't closed (where will it pop up next?) but tolerated, yet with some undercover agents in place.

The issue in the film was the controversy of the Genesis Project and apparently the undercover agent was put in place to listen what information was flowing around. I have little doubt that he had been briefed who was involved with the Genesis Incident, so he probably identified McCoy when he entered the bar.

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Old June 11 2014, 02:07 PM   #89
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.
You must have watched a different movie than I did, because I got none of that. Starfleet as an evil empire out to get Kirk and crew? Huh?
Kind of makes me wonder what movie you saw, since Starfleet in the movies is so seriously contemporary in its thinking (perhaps the one aspect of Sowards TWOK script that Bennett carried over, the unstated notion that Starfleet has abandoned the 'to boldy go' idea in favor of just protecting its existing territories, which invalidates much of Kirk's LIFE), the paranoia angle is just seeping out all over. I think Kirk even has a glimmer of what is coming. When he muses about the 'hero's welcome,' he may already be expecting some bad shit coming down.

The main thing I got from opening day on SFS (besides thinking it was a real disappointment) was that Starfleet and the Federation didn't DESERVE benefitting from having this crew anymore, and that Kirk & co would have been much better off going private (which coincidentally fits into my notino for followups that wouldn't be burdened with all the rigamarole of San Francisco and spacedock and could have just told trek stories without a lot of distraction.)
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Old June 11 2014, 06:56 PM   #90
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.
Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.
The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive, Kirk's missions have an alarming tendency to uproot the political establishment of whatever planet he visits. In another universe, a less established James T. Kirk got demoted and nearly fired for that sort of thing; in the Prime Universe, they stuck him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble.

And yet...
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