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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old July 14 2014, 11:09 PM   #271
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

They would still be counted as Federation ships, just with Earth registries. The same would be true with ships of Vulcan or Andorian registries, IMO. It would probably work with vessels pre-Federation or non-Federation though...
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Old July 14 2014, 11:42 PM   #272
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Would they though? The primary assumption is that Federation ships are Starfleet. Other things are civilian or planetary government, at least during the 22nd and 23rd century, and thus not be included as a Federation vessel. Much like any civilian ship today would not be included on a list of US Navy ships or in many cases even American ships even if it is registered in the United States.
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Old July 15 2014, 12:38 AM   #273
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.
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Old July 15 2014, 12:44 AM   #274
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.
Source?
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Old July 15 2014, 12:50 AM   #275
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.
Source?
Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.
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Old July 15 2014, 12:56 AM   #276
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.
Source?
Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.
I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.
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Old July 15 2014, 01:02 AM   #277
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

Source?
Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.
I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.
Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...
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Old July 15 2014, 01:34 AM   #278
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.
I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.
Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...
I can fathom it, at least with an added bit. For civilian vessels they may or may not fly the flag of the US. They may choose to fly the flag of Panama, even if the ship was built in the US, and manned entirely by Americans. It's a "Panamanian" Ship even if it was not built there and not a single Panamanian sails on her.

We don't know what Federation registry rules are. It's possible a ship may not "fly the flag of the Federation" even though it was built there and the entire crew is made up of people from Federation planets.
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Old July 15 2014, 02:54 AM   #279
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

AirCommodore wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.
Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...
I can fathom it, at least with an added bit. For civilian vessels they may or may not fly the flag of the US. They may choose to fly the flag of Panama, even if the ship was built in the US, and manned entirely by Americans. It's a "Panamanian" Ship even if it was not built there and not a single Panamanian sails on her.

We don't know what Federation registry rules are. It's possible a ship may not "fly the flag of the Federation" even though it was built there and the entire crew is made up of people from Federation planets. Today 07:02 PM
It's just a simple case of who is a member of the Federation and who isn't. You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.

Starfleet vessels tend to identify themselves clearly as Federation ships when dealing with non-Federation ships and worlds, but the term could still be applied to civilian vessels too.

A case could be made for independent vessels that don't have Federation registry and really aren't aligned with the Federation or any of its member worlds, but the point was about those that do.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:09 AM   #280
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.
Not really. If things in Star Trek were no-brainers, there wouldn't be so much contradiction within canon.

We all have our "theories" for how things work in continuity. But just because something makes sense based on existing canon, that doesn't mean that when it's squarely addressed in a future movie or episode that it will necessarily comport with our theories. Much of the time, it doesn't.

If it's not addressed in canon, it's not addressed in canon.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:24 AM   #281
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.
Not really. If things in Star Trek were no-brainers, there wouldn't be so much contradiction within canon.
No, this is really a painfully simple issue.

Sure, fans can argue over everything and anything though.
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Last edited by C.E. Evans; July 15 2014 at 03:38 AM. Reason: added "a"
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Old July 15 2014, 03:47 AM   #282
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.
Not really. If things in Star Trek were no-brainers, there wouldn't be so much contradiction within canon.
No, this is really a painfully simple issue.

Sure, fans can argue over everything and anything though.
You're right. It is painfully simple. No film or episode has ever established whether all ships registered to an individual planet are automatically registered to the Federation.

From the Trek Tech FAQ:
AlexR wrote: View Post
------------
2] What source materials will be used in this forum? Because Trek Tech, as a genre, exists as much in the minds of fandom as anything explicated strictly on-screen, a wide variety of sources will be considered worthy of consideration. Since there is a diversity of viewpoints and ideas in play, source citations should be included wherever possible, to allow for an objective analysis of the content of a discussion.

Note, however, that screaming "non-canon!" by itself shouldn't carry extra weight, unless a canonical source contradicts a non-canonical one. The vast majority of what we "know", Treknology-wise, is non-canon, so we merely need to accept that reality. While licensed materials may be given some "preference", it should be noted that none of the licensed materials are free from error, and all have been on-screen contradicted from time to time, so take them for what they are: one way of looking at the Trek Universe. (In short, read Mike and Rick's disclaimers, and take them to heart! )

------------
I think that speaks for itself.
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Old July 15 2014, 04:34 AM   #283
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

The Federation seems at times more like an alliance of planets. Each world still has its own laws and ships. At least in the 22nd and 23rd centuries. In the 24th century things seem to start getting closer together, but not in Kirk's day. You have Starfleet ships run entirely by Vulcans and lots of ship crewed entirely by humans. But these are Starfleet....military ships. What of the civilian ships, the ships that are still part of the planetary defense forces that are not under Starfleet?

The trouble is that we don't have a good equivalent to test this in history. The closes we have would be the United States in the 1780s under the Articles of Confederation. In the days when it was one country but also 13 countries with there own taxes, and forces. You might have a United States ship, but you might also have a Virginian Ship. The ships would identify as from the state rather that the country more often than not. This stayed somewhat like this even after the Constitution was adopted and even to the 20th century when the state militia were changed into the National Guard. Prior to that you might have a ship as part of the New York Militia and it not technically an American warship, though it had been, and by that point the line were going way. But it took time even following the Civil War to get then all to be American ships, rather than ships from a particular state, unless it was part of the military or registered specifically to the United States.

The other option would the European Union. You would also have British trawlers, that while still part of the European Union, would not be a European ship. It is a British ship. If the EU had a unified or more allied military structure, you might ship warship (or today in space you do see European station bits) listed as European, but you would also see ships that are British or German or French. These would not be European ships, even though they are part of the European Union.

Similarly, a Vulcan ship not under Starfleet would more than likely be a Vulcan ship, not a Federation ship, even though Vulcan is part of the Federation. The ship would not be part of a listing of Federation ships, as it is specifically Vulcan, not Federation.
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Old July 15 2014, 06:22 AM   #284
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

Not really. If things in Star Trek were no-brainers, there wouldn't be so much contradiction within canon.
No, this is really a painfully simple issue.

Sure, fans can argue over everything and anything though.
You're right. It is painfully simple. No film or episode has ever established whether all ships registered to an individual planet are automatically registered to the Federation.
Sure, it does and to say otherwise is just flat out denial here. Whenever there's mention of ships from Federation member worlds, they're Federation ships, just like how citizens of a Federation member world are Federation citizens.

It really shouldn't have to be spelled out.
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Old July 15 2014, 06:27 AM   #285
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro pretty much hit the point on the head.
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