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Old July 12 2014, 06:01 PM   #256
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I view Scotty's comment about Kirk bringing the Enterprise-A out of retirement to look for him as just being a joke on his part, not too unlike saying someone deceased rolling over in their grave about something.

As far as the rest, I think it's just a simple case that there were only five Federation starships have been named Enterprise at the time. If there had been other vessels in the Federation history that had been called Enterprise, the computer would have said so:

COMPUTER: There have been [INSERT NUMBER HERE] Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.

It probably should be noted that the computer specifically said "ships" not "starships"...
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Old July 12 2014, 06:22 PM   #257
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro, that's quite a work of speculation, but one which doesn't contradict any of the known facts...and even solves a couple of nits in the process! Well done, I may just nick that for my personal canon

As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?
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Old July 12 2014, 06:48 PM   #258
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Mytran wrote: View Post
As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?
The point wasn't that there weren't ships prior to the Federation called Enterprise, but rather that NCC-1701 was the first Federation ship called Enterprise.
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Old July 12 2014, 06:50 PM   #259
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Sorry, I didn't realise that was still a point of contention, given the clear and explicit dialogue from the ship's computer. Ah, well.
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Old July 12 2014, 06:51 PM   #260
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I thought it was pretty clear myself too...
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Old July 14 2014, 04:46 AM   #261
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

back to the orginial topic:

On why there is not Constitution-class ships any more, but still Excelsior-class ships; from Ex Astris Scientia:

A possible reason why the Enterprise-A and possibly other ships of the class were scheduled to be retired at the end of "Star Trek VI" can be found in the movie itself. At the initial briefing one of the admirals speaks of "mothballing the Starfleet". He is certainly exaggerating, but more precisely he could refer to a bilateral arms reduction treaty. Such an agreement may easily include several ships of the Constitution class as a typical frontline type of vessels. In such a scenario Starfleet would prefer their (provisional) retirement over that of the newer Excelsior class.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...ip_classes.htm

And going off on that, what if some of those ships where reconfigured or served as parts for the Soyuz and Miranda-classes. That would explain why we still see those classes in service.

Last edited by Sans; July 14 2014 at 04:50 AM. Reason: added last part
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Old July 14 2014, 05:09 AM   #262
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The crew of Enterprise-D seemed surprised to find Scott on this transport. Maybe because as far as they know he lived beyond that point.
I love this idea, but I'll have to watch it again. I thought they said in show that he disappeared: no mention that he lived after the crash.
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Old July 14 2014, 08:35 AM   #263
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Or maybe he "disappeared" after the launch of Enterprise-B, but not related to the Dyson Sphere.

I've not watched the whole episode in a while either.


The Constitution-class, as we generally know it, is a very old class by the time of Star Trek VI. If the original Enterprise was one of the earliest ships of that class, that means the class has been around for about 50 years by that time. If one assumes the lower registry numbered ships are also the same class but even older, than the Constitution-class could be even older than that by upwards of decades. We can assume the design is not that old, but that it mainly to do with Enterprise having on board in the late 2260s both the designer of the Enterprise (Lawrence Marvick) and Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the computers used on Enterprise.

But even then, the Constitution-class is at least 50 years old by the time of Khitomer. How many Constitutions were build in those 50 years? We know there were 13 according to Kirk in 2267. Were they all built early on then then continued on until they were destroyed or wore out? We know they were refit more than once, but how long can they stay active even with major refits? Was the Enterprise-A the last one built? Was it an older ship that was renamed to Enterprise and given a new number? Did they even build new Constitutions after the first run or so? Did they build new ones based on the various refits, or only refit the older ones to keep them modernized as Starfleet build other new ships (like the Mirandas, the Constellations, and Excelsior)?

Can the Constitution hulls hold out for more than 50 years? 100 years? We don't know. Or were they so heavily used and abused that they wore out quicker than the larger and perhaps more robust Excelsiors, or the potentially cheaper and maybe not as heavily used Mirandas. The Constellations were called underpowered by Picard and seem to be used hard, but they soldiered on for about 70 or 80 years before we basically stopped seeing them in Star Trek. They look a little more robust than the sometimes fragile looking Constitutions.

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?
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Old July 14 2014, 04:44 PM   #264
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Sans wrote: View Post
back to the orginial topic:

On why there is not Constitution-class ships any more, but still Excelsior-class ships; from Ex Astris Scientia:

A possible reason why the Enterprise-A and possibly other ships of the class were scheduled to be retired at the end of "Star Trek VI" can be found in the movie itself. At the initial briefing one of the admirals speaks of "mothballing the Starfleet". He is certainly exaggerating, but more precisely he could refer to a bilateral arms reduction treaty. Such an agreement may easily include several ships of the Constitution class as a typical frontline type of vessels. In such a scenario Starfleet would prefer their (provisional) retirement over that of the newer Excelsior class.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...ip_classes.htm

And going off on that, what if some of those ships where reconfigured or served as parts for the Soyuz and Miranda-classes. That would explain why we still see those classes in service.
We can look the USS. Bozeman NCC-1941, a Soyuz class starship which went through a time loop in 2278 and it own class decommission in 2287.
Ithekro wrote: View Post
Or maybe he "disappeared" after the launch of Enterprise-B, but not related to the Dyson Sphere.

I've not watched the whole episode in a while either.


The Constitution-class, as we generally know it, is a very old class by the time of Star Trek VI. If the original Enterprise was one of the earliest ships of that class, that means the class has been around for about 50 years by that time. If one assumes the lower registry numbered ships are also the same class but even older, than the Constitution-class could be even older than that by upwards of decades. We can assume the design is not that old, but that it mainly to do with Enterprise having on board in the late 2260s both the designer of the Enterprise (Lawrence Marvick) and Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the computers used on Enterprise.

But even then, the Constitution-class is at least 50 years old by the time of Khitomer. How many Constitutions were build in those 50 years? We know there were 13 according to Kirk in 2267. Were they all built early on then then continued on until they were destroyed or wore out? We know they were refit more than once, but how long can they stay active even with major refits? Was the Enterprise-A the last one built? Was it an older ship that was renamed to Enterprise and given a new number? Did they even build new Constitutions after the first run or so? Did they build new ones based on the various refits, or only refit the older ones to keep them modernized as Starfleet build other new ships (like the Mirandas, the Constellations, and Excelsior)?

Can the Constitution hulls hold out for more than 50 years? 100 years? We don't know. Or were they so heavily used and abused that they wore out quicker than the larger and perhaps more robust Excelsiors, or the potentially cheaper and maybe not as heavily used Mirandas. The Constellations were called underpowered by Picard and seem to be used hard, but they soldiered on for about 70 or 80 years before we basically stopped seeing them in Star Trek. They look a little more robust than the sometimes fragile looking Constitutions.

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?
I'm assuming that the USS Eagle NCC-956 was in mothball and the USS. Endeavor NCC-1895 haven't been commission yet, even thought it was at starbase 11.
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Old July 14 2014, 07:27 PM   #265
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?
I think it's possible that there may have been some Constitution-class ships still in service by 2320s, but by then there might have been only a handful of them left and they were generally reserved for courier and colonization support missions.

It could be that the Constitution-class design had a fairly long life (about 80 years or so), but the lifespan of individual ships within the design tended to be half that or even less, IMO. The last brand-new Constitution-class ship may have been built in the 2280s.
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Old July 14 2014, 09:44 PM   #266
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?
Hard to say. It's possible that some still exist in service in 2391, or whatever the year is "now" in Trek Prime. Many ships could continue indefinitely, if that was decided upon. Most ships that are retired are not retired because they are "worn out". Sometimes it is simply decided to replace older classes with newer more advanced classes.

Sometimes, older ships are "transferred" to other Navies, the Coast Guard, or some other entity and then go on in their new service for many, many more years. Some WWII US Navy ships are still in service.

I would be surprised if Starleet still used them, although Miranda Class ships were still in use. But some might still have life, with other organizations, for training, research or other purposes.
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Old July 14 2014, 09:52 PM   #267
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?
The point wasn't that there weren't ships prior to the Federation called Enterprise, but rather that NCC-1701 was the first Federation ship called Enterprise.

Until a future writer decides to say there was one, or two or more. They can if they want to. Majel only said what the script told her to say. If that changes later, it's not a big deal. It did seem strange that the name "Enterprise", so famous after the exploits of NX-01, would go unused for 80 or 90 years.

But since Scotty said "my old ship", maybe the computer eliminated any ships with no living former crew members. I prefer to say they simply hadn't thought of making shows set in the decades for Kirk prior to that TNG episode.
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Old July 14 2014, 10:10 PM   #268
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

My thoughts, going with the idea that all of Constitution-class ships, both the refit and any non-refits if any left, where decommissioned due to the Khitomer Accords. This ships, being older, and my guess at this time, very numerous, was chosen due so none of the Excelsior class ships in the pipeline whould be cut back.

Instead of scrapping them, they were used to beef up the exploration side, by using them as parts for the Soyuz, Miranda, and Constellation class ships. When the Soyuz class was decommissioned, they might have been retrofitted to standard Miranda-class ships.

As for the number of ships of the Constitution Classes there where, how big was Starfleet at the times in question?

Also, as for as the converstions about ships named Enterprise, how do we not know that it was a test bed for tech that didn't exactly plan out the way Starfleet thought it would? Also, what proof do we have that the Enterprise-B served any span of time? What if due to the apparent death of Kirk, what if TPTB decided that it would be ill form to keep the Enterprise name going and desided to rename her to the Lakota like it was suggested before? If one would accept these two thoughts, then it would answer why we only see on other Excelsior-class refit and the span between C and D would not bee that unusall as it happen between B and C.
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Old July 14 2014, 10:32 PM   #269
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

AirCommodore wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?
The point wasn't that there weren't ships prior to the Federation called Enterprise, but rather that NCC-1701 was the first Federation ship called Enterprise.

Until a future writer decides to say there was one, or two or more. They can if they want to. Majel only said what the script told her to say. If that changes later, it's not a big deal.
In a very real sense, that's neither here nor there given how things presently stand officially.
It did seem strange that the name "Enterprise", so famous after the exploits of NX-01, would go unused for 80 or 90 years.
There may not have been an Enterprise in active service, but there was still an Enterprise during that time as NX-01 was never scrapped but instead moved to a museum (where still currently exists in the 24th-Century).
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Old July 14 2014, 10:53 PM   #270
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Or there was a ship (or two) that were just not Starfleet ships. Enterprise the colonial transport, passenger liner, or even something unusual like diplomatic carrier used to move people from one Federation world to the next in an expanding effort to unify the Federation, instead of as a Starfleet vessel that might still be seen as an Earth ship.
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