RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,142
Posts: 5,433,963
Members: 24,935
Currently online: 509
Newest member: Uhura's legs

TrekToday headlines

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10 2014, 05:45 AM   #241
Ithekro
Fleet Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Not enough money. They built basically a sixth of the set, at best, and borrowed some fan-built chairs, helm console and I think captain's chair. Then made due with camera angles to make it seem like they had the whole bridge. The part they built looks the correct shape of the bridge, but then the angles they took forced the chairs to be in the wrong positions and alter the effect.

When it comes to colors, it was found out that the colors seen in the images are not the actual colors, but the color the lighting gave it in the 1960s. Thus making the carpet the color seen in the pictures will fail once it hits studio lighting. To make it accurate would require not only knowing what color the carpet actually was, but also how they lit the set and be able to match both.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 06:17 AM   #242
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

It was their first attempt to recreate TOS sets though, and for a relatively short scene in relation to the whole episode (which also had several new models and SFX to budget for as well as James Doohan). Later recreations would have more time and money and still got details wrong for no obvious reason (the corner posts in TAT's corridoe set still annoy me).
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 08:22 AM   #243
Ithekro
Fleet Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Sometimes people think they remember something and it turns out they really didn't. Yet the something they thought they remembered gets put on screen.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 09:58 AM   #244
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

When the corridor sets have been available in printed form for 30 years though (TMOST), is it too much to ask for some basic accuracy? Correct colouring on the other hand, is more tricky.
Green shirts or gold, anyone?
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 10:39 AM   #245
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Do we really know whether the ship's computer has holodeck programs of Enterprises prior to the TOS Enterprise?
Yes we do, as seen in "These Are the Voyages" which supposedly takes place barely a year after "Relics."

We also know it has a simulation of a 19th century Enterprise (as seen in Generations), which was also excluded from the list.
Darn, I just thought I had managed to forget TATV and you bring it back.
Technically correct, I have to admit, but quite reluctantly I should add.

On the other hand the 19th Century Enterprise is a work of fiction. I think our real life research made it clear that no real Enterprise sailing vessel ever existed in that configuration.

@ Mytran

Yes, I think it's agreeable that TMoST is the standard book that is mandatory for anyone recreating something TOS related. But it's almost a classic we are dealing here with: Franz Joseph had the book, and still none of his deck plans reflected the accurate studio set, except for the bridge.

What still bugs me about TAT is that they missed a corridor door with their set recreation which we just saw seconds earlier in the original TOS footage in the DS9 episode. It now looks like one door magically vanished between shots (I'm afraid DS9-R would remove the original TOS door for some sake of continuity, cheaper to accomplish than fixing the DS9 corridor footage)

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 06:19 PM   #246
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
On the other hand the 19th Century Enterprise is a work of fiction. I think our real life research made it clear that no real Enterprise sailing vessel ever existed in that configuration.
That's not true at all. Star Trek is a work of fiction. Therefore, how do you know that this sailing ship isn't the real thing, in-universe-speaking?
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2014, 10:09 PM   #247
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Sorry, but no.
No what? If they didn't say it, they didn't say it.
But they did say it.
Scotty didn't. The computer listed Federation vessels without being asked to. Neither did the Temporal Investigations agents when talking to Sisko, nor did Sisko himself.

As long as they aren't Federation starships named Enterprise then it works.
Right, so it stands to reason that only ships commissioned to Federation service get the 1701 registry. Stafleet may maintain auxiliaries -- training vessels and such -- that don't technically serve the Federation directly. I half belief that the original 1701 originally started as a UESPA vessel too and later received a Federation commission along with most of the Starfleet (perhaps Starfleet wasn't purely a Federation organization until the 2260s? Perhaps it still isn't?)
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2014, 11:12 PM   #248
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No what? If they didn't say it, they didn't say it.
But they did say it.
Scotty didn't. The computer listed Federation vessels without being asked to. Neither did the Temporal Investigations agents when talking to Sisko, nor did Sisko himself.
That's simply denial on your part. Scotty certainly wasn't talking about anything other than the Federation starship that he served on. And the Temporal Investigation agents and Sisko were definitely talking about Federation starships.

SISKO: This was the first Enterprise. Constitution class.
DULMUR: His ship...
LUCSLY: James T. Kirk.

Now, unless I'm mistaken--and maybe other people on this board can help me with this--didn't James T. Kirk command the Federation Starship Enterprise? Didn't Scotty serve aboard the Federation Starship Enterprise?

The computer said (at the time) that there had been five Federation starships named Enterprise, so it should go like this:
  1. Enterprise
  2. Enterprise-A
  3. Enterprise-B
  4. Enterprise-C
  5. Enterprise-D

I don't know how that everyone can be wrong about that...
As long as they aren't Federation starships named Enterprise then it works.
Right, so it stands to reason that only ships commissioned to Federation service get the 1701 registry.
Which makes them non-Federation starships like NX-01, and vessels that weren't being discussed.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 02:16 AM   #249
Ithekro
Fleet Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

What are you two arguing about anyway? I've lost the actual point trying to be made here and why?

That there were five (later six) Federation starships named Enterprise.

and that there have been ships that are not Federation starships also named Enterprise?

Or is this about something else based on how things are said in episodes?

What is the point trying to be made without going into massive quote boxes, which get the point lost since now I can't tell what was the point being argued, since it looks like you are both agreeing from different points of view and just missing it because of context and quote boxes.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 02:23 AM   #250
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
What are you two arguing about anyway? I've lost the actual point trying to be made here and why?

That there were five (later six) Federation starships named Enterprise.

and that there have been ships that are not Federation starships also named Enterprise?

Or is this about something else based on how things are said in episodes?

What is the point trying to be made without going into massive quote boxes, which get the point lost since now I can't tell what was the point being argued, since it looks like you are both agreeing from different points of view and just missing it because of context and quote boxes.
I'm coming from the position that at the time of TNG's Relics, there had been five Federation starships named Enterprise. Apparently that's incorrect.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 08:01 AM   #251
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But they did say it.
Scotty didn't. The computer listed Federation vessels without being asked to. Neither did the Temporal Investigations agents when talking to Sisko, nor did Sisko himself.
That's simply denial on your part.
No, it's just a fact. We're discussing what the fact implies.

I don't know how that everyone can be wrong about that...
You'd be surprised the things people can be wrong about. I still keep running into people who think Christopher Columbus proved that the Earth was round.

Which makes them non-Federation starships like NX-01, and vessels that weren't being discussed.
Right. And if NX-01 managed to stay under Trek's historical radar forever (never mind that its VERY EXISTENCE is the mother of all retcons) then this leaves open the strong possibility that there's quite a number of bastard Enterprises that served Starfleet in some capacity or another but never in service to the Federation. Again, repeated references to 1701 originally being an Earth vessel suggests that it might not have been in Federation service until halfway into Season One.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 08:08 AM   #252
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
and that there have been ships that are not Federation starships also named Enterprise?
There's the historical gap between the Enterprise-B and -C, and -C to -D. It seems to be and probably is an otherwise smooth progression between those designs: when the old one gets trashed or retired they simply replace it with the latest model. Enterprise-B is at least explainable as being a victim of attrition (otherwise the Excelsiors seem to have substantial longevity) or in terms of them appropriating the name just because they wanted to give it to an Ambassador class.

But the -C to -D gap is over 20 years long and rather hard to explain along normal terms. As such, my belief is that the name was in use by some other vessel that for whatever reason wasn't in service to the Federation per se, serving in a capacity that was noteworthy enough to keep the name but mundane enough that nobody cares about it. Like a training vessel or an auxiliary, or maybe they recommissioned the E-B for a spell).

Point is, the dialog never explicitly states that ALL Enterprises are Federation vessels, and in NX-01 we know of at least one that isn't. I suspect that there's at least one more "forgotten Enterprise" that you'd never really know about unless you went to UESPA's 24th century website (or to whatever obscure data archive Riker and Troi used to dig out NX-01's mission records).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 08:31 AM   #253
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Scotty didn't. The computer listed Federation vessels without being asked to. Neither did the Temporal Investigations agents when talking to Sisko, nor did Sisko himself.
That's simply denial on your part.
No, it's just a fact. We're discussing what the fact implies.
No, the only fact is that there were five Federation starships named Enterprise at the time of "Relics."
I don't know how that everyone can be wrong about that...
You'd be surprised the things people can be wrong about. I still keep running into people who think Christopher Columbus proved that the Earth was round.
Which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Which makes them non-Federation starships like NX-01, and vessels that weren't being discussed.
Right. And if NX-01 managed to stay under Trek's historical radar forever (never mind that its VERY EXISTENCE is the mother of all retcons) then this leaves open the strong possibility that there's quite a number of bastard Enterprises that served Starfleet in some capacity or another but never in service to the Federation. Again, repeated references to 1701 originally being an Earth vessel suggests that it might not have been in Federation service until halfway into Season One.
Oh, I see. You're ignoring canon and replacing it with your own personal conjecture. That explains everything. Sorry, I'd rather stick with the official onscreen material which has NCC-1701 as the first Federation Starship Enterprise.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 01:04 PM   #254
Terror Grin
Captain
 
Terror Grin's Avatar
 
Location: BK613
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
On the other hand the 19th Century Enterprise is a work of fiction. I think our real life research made it clear that no real Enterprise sailing vessel ever existed in that configuration.
That's not true at all. Star Trek is a work of fiction. Therefore, how do you know that this sailing ship isn't the real thing, in-universe-speaking?
The USS Enterprise that fought and captured HMS Boxer in September of 1813 was a brig. The Lady Washington, which stands in for the Enterprise in STGen, was a brig. That's close enough casting for me.
__________________
-------------------
"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place." - George Bernard Shaw
Terror Grin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2014, 05:32 PM   #255
Ithekro
Fleet Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

As mentioned. As of Relics, there are only five Federation Starships named Enterprise.

This gives two places of wiggle room.

A. That there are other ships named Enterprise that aren't registered under "Federation"...just as an Earth ship, or a Vulcan ship, or a Trill ship, that is registered for that planet and not the Federation...which implies it is used by Starfleet for the whole of the Federation.

B. There are other vessels named Enterprise that are not classified as Starships. This is an odd one as for a long time the term "starship" would seem to imply a specific and special kind of spacecraft. Later that might have become generic if a runabout is considered a starship (which I don't recall if that was the case or not).

The three bit of wiggle room is if an other ship that was named Enterprise was recommissioned at some later date and used in the fleet. It is still considered part of the original five Federation starships listed by the computer, but doesn't mean they all served in a linear order. Such as the Enterprise-A, or Enterprise-B being reactivated following the destruction of Enterprise-C until such time as the Enterprise-D was officially named (this requiring the older ship to be decommissioned, or renamed to free up the name).

That Starfleet does not seem to be extremely ridged on the idea that two ships can't have the same name at the same time (see USS Melbourne) does mean that it is possible for two Enterprises to be in service at the same time, if briefly, without needing to decommission one prior to the launch of the next. Though that might have been the reason for Enterprise-A's decommissioning...the imamate commissioning of Enterprise-B. Was the ship kept in mothballs, was is scrapped? Did Kirk blow it up like Shatner's novels have it? Was it renamed to give the name to the -B and then recommissioned for service, if one assumes it is a relatively new ship after Star Trek IV?

Was the Enterprise-A rebuilt to match the original's configuration during the Five Year Mission under Kirk and registered as NCC-1701-M?

Lots of odd questions. No answers.


But here is something off the wall to speculate on.

In Relics, it is clear that Scotty thinks Kirk might have brought the Enterprise-A out of mothballs to come get him. Clearly this isn't possible due to Kirk's death on the Enterprise-B which Scotty witnessed.

But, what if it is possible? Lets take something out of both TNG and the NuTrek films. Spock gives Scott the final piece of his transwarp beaming formula. When did Scott prefect that? He was clearly working on it at a much younger age in the NuTrek films, yet we never hear about it before. Now think of Relics. As a last ditch move to survive, Scott and Franklin use the transporter as a stasis chamber. But, what if that wasn't the first thing they tried. What if Scott tried transwarp beaming first, and it half worked?

I've lost you now, right? Now think about what happened to Will Riker. He has a transporter accident that split him into to identical people, yet they didn't know of the other's existence, nor were they the split person that happened to Kirk a century earlier. Now, what if this happened to Scott and Franklin? The crew of Enterprise-D seemed surprised to find Scott on this transport. Maybe because as far as they know he lived beyond that point.

Think of Star Trek VI. Scott says he just bought a boat. Perhaps immediately after the Enterprise-A is decommissioned, Scotty get on a transport to the Norpin colony. It hits the Dyson sphere, kills most of the crew. Scott uses his untested transwarp beaming setup to beam himself and Franklin to Earth. He is successful, and both Scott and Franklin live on. Scott logs the formula for transwarp beaming, which is immediately locked down by Section 31, as is all mention of the Dyson Sphere. Scott tells Spock about the formula on the side just to spite the Section 31 tossers. Scott later goes to the commissioning ceremony for Enterprise-B and witnesses Kirk's "death". Scotty dies at some point due to old age in retirement.

However, the interference from the Dyson Sphere also bounced back a copy of Scott and Franklin. That Scott thinks he failed and then comes up with the stasis method as a last chance. The duplicate Scott survived some 75 years later, but the duplicate Franklin does not. This Scott doesn't know that transwarp beaming is possible, but possibly works on it again later on, perhaps running into Spock again.

But via these methods, you have three things done:
A. Two Scotts that can follow the on screen canon.
B. A Prime universe example of transwarp beaming that would be sequestered.
C. A possible way to hide the Dyson Sphere from the record books even though it should be on a relatively common warp lane between Earth and Norpin Colony.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.