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Old July 7 2014, 03:04 PM   #196
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

The model designers were thinking of some of the other Starfleet ships as the NV-class and the like. Using a variation of the numbering on airplanes in the United States. Much like how the NCC-1701's hull number was originally based on aircraft numbers (the N for United States and one of the C for Soviet Union). They kept Jeffieries style of numbering it seems, rather that the movie era and beyond style numbers. (If I recall, had they kept the Matt Jefferies style, each class would have had a different numbering system, and different types of ships would have different letter before the numbers. That changed entirely with the movies, and to some extent from Franz Jospef's book.)
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Old July 7 2014, 03:23 PM   #197
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

^ IIRC, the Intrepid model had a registry number that started with "NC" as did the Sarajevo class from "Daedalus."
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Old July 7 2014, 03:44 PM   #198
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I don't recall any of the other models having any names or numbers on them. At least I don't recall seen any from Doug Drexler's old site.
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Old July 7 2014, 03:58 PM   #199
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
If I recall, had they kept the Matt Jefferies style, each class would have had a different numbering system, and different types of ships would have different letter before the numbers. That changed entirely with the movies, and to some extent from Franz Joseph's book.
According to Jefferies the first two digits would indicate the Federation Cruiser (or Starship) design series, i.e.
  • 17 for the Enterprise Starship Class
  • 18 for the Miranda Starship Class
  • 19 for the Soyuz Starship Class
  • 20 for the Excelsior Starship Class
After that, the numbering apparently changed to a different system whose details haven't been worked out yet.

Bob
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Old July 7 2014, 04:40 PM   #200
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
My impression had always been that post-TOS the concept of alphabetic classes (suggested in "The Menagerie I") had never been pursued.
Well, as you point out Starfleet was still using old Class J training vessels in TOS, but that isn't definite proof that the letter system had been completely phased out by TOS.

But whatever the "N" in "NCC" stands for, it stands to reason that the "N" in "NX" is the same and part of the registry, not of a class.
Possibly, but without further context (which ENT failed to provide), we don't know for sure.

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The model designers were thinking of some of the other Starfleet ships as the NV-class and the like.
No, that's a myth, based on a model kit of the "Intrepid" type which was labeled with "NV-01." Neither of the pre-NX-01 Earth Starfleet vessel types were given registry numbers or class names, nor did the designers of said CGI models bother with that sort of background info.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ IIRC, the Intrepid model had a registry number that started with "NC" as did the Sarajevo class from "Daedalus."
The "NC" comes from concept art of the Sarajevo from John Eaves. Unfortunately Eaves has the penchant for giving weird markings on his concept art (i.e., "NCC-1254" for a ship design from the late TNG era), so anything he did on his concept art isn't really valid, and it didn't show up on the final CGI model anyway.

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I don't recall any of the other models having any names or numbers on them. At least I don't recall seen any from Doug Drexler's old site.
The Starfleet ships didn't. They didn't even have official class names, the first type being called the "warp delta" and the second type (the Intrepid-type) being called the "half-saucer" or some such thing. Some of the ECS freighters might have had registries though. The ECS Fortunate has the number ECS2801 on its hull, which could be a registry.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
...
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...
I'm really not getting all the dick-waggling you guys are doing about this subject. Scotty wanted to see the TOS Enterprise bridge. He specifically told the computer that he didn't want to see the bridges of the A, B, C, or D, and he gave the TOS ship's registry number. So the computer showed him the TOS ship. What's to argue about here? is it about the "five Federation starships" comment? That would be the Ent-nil, the A, B, C, and D. Again, what's the argument?
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Last edited by Dukhat; July 7 2014 at 05:04 PM.
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Old July 7 2014, 04:42 PM   #201
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Still doesn't work. Even within the Constitution-class ships, as we have ships in the 1600s and of course Constellation in the 10s.

I did speculate once that the registry numbers indicated which shipyard/planetary system the ship was built. With the first one or two numbers being the place and the rest of the numbers being the ship built there.

The 17s being built at Sol. The 16s being built elsewhere, such as Vulcan (since USS Intrepid was an all Vulcan crewed ship and she is listed as NCC-1631). The 18s and maybe 19s being built at other yards. By the time they got to the end of the 17s, they needed a new number set of Sol, so Excelsior gets to be the first of the new set built their in the 20s.

Constellation, Republic, and Eagle being built at some more obscure shipyards in the Federation, owing to their low registry numbers.

Last edited by Ithekro; July 7 2014 at 04:56 PM.
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Old July 7 2014, 05:55 PM   #202
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Still doesn't work. Even within the Constitution-class ships, as we have ships in the 1600s and of course Constellation in the 10s.
How comes? I'd say it works perfectly
  • 16 for the Constitution Starship Class
(unfortunately it's a very popular misconception that the Enterprise belonged to the Constitution Class. The Making of Star Trek explicitly mentions twice that the Enterprise belonged to the "Enterprise Starship Class", add to this that's what the dedication plaque on the Bridge says )

As for the Constellation NCC-1017 they didn't add letters, yet, during TOS. Obviously this caused a lot of confusion, therefore they started adding alphabetic letters later for vessels that were named and numbered to honor the achievements of earlier starships like the Enterprise and the Yamato. YMMV.

Bob
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Old July 7 2014, 07:10 PM   #203
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

My thought was to make some odd numbers work in a weird way.

Think about this. The Federation is founded and they start incorperating ships from the various worlds into the fleet. Then they add all the existing shipyards and start upgrading various yards for each member world. They start with 100 ships for each system with yards in it, or perhaps two sets of 100 per system. Earth gets 0 and 1. Vulcan gets 2 and 3. Andor gets 4 and 5. Tellar gets 6. Debobula get 7. Alpha Centari gets 8. Albebaran gets 9 and Deneb gets 10. Other planets start getting a single set of 100 number to fill orders. But then Earth and Vulcan go over and start using a new set of 100. By the 2240s Vulcan gets 16 and Earth gets 17. Earth cheats a little with the 0 and goes to 999 with it, possibly including some older ships with it.

This would account for there being both the Saladin-class in the 500s and the Kelvin-type in the 0500s. And also accout for the brand new looking USS Grissom having a hull number in the 600s long after the 1700 era Constitutions are built. Some places just don't build as many ships for Starfleet. It also accounts for some ships that seem like they should be newer or older than another ship having ridiculous hull numbers even into the 24th century.

The USS Enterprise keeps the NCC-1701 number in all forms partly because they are all built in the Sol system and covered under the 17s allowing Earth a few more hulls in later block numbers to be contracted, or something. (Noticing the oddity of the Enterprise-B's plate not giving the shipyard it was constructed even though all the other Enterprises do list the yard built. That said, we see it launched from Earth.)
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Old July 7 2014, 08:02 PM   #204
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
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Which, in the context, of what we've been discussing, is irrelevant.
No, its the whole point of the discussion. From the very start...
The very start was here, where I pointed out to you that discussions of "ships named Enterprise" rarely if ever specify that they are referring to Federation ships named Enterprise. Scotty didn't, and neither did the DTI agents. Even the E-D's dedication plaque doesn't specify that.
Sorry, but no.
Therefore those references cannot and should not be considered to be concise or authoritative since it's clear that they are only true in a relatively narrow context. There could be and probably are MANY starships that have born the name Enterprise, but are excluded from the list because they're not major vessels or were never commissioned by the Federation.
I disagree and so does canon and onscreen continuity.
Dukhat wrote:
I'm really not getting all the dick-waggling you guys are doing about this subject.
Only one person is waggling a dick here.
Scotty wanted to see the TOS Enterprise bridge. He specifically told the computer that he didn't want to see the bridges of the A, B, C, or D, and he gave the TOS ship's registry number. So the computer showed him the TOS ship. What's to argue about here? is it about the "five Federation starships" comment? That would be the Ent-nil, the A, B, C, and D. Again, what's the argument?
Exactly. There's nothing to argue about.
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Old July 7 2014, 10:45 PM   #205
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I will try to mediate, hope you don't mind. Here is the dialogue from "Relics":

COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.
SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of
COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.
SCOTT: NCC 1701. No bloody A, B, C, or D.


Do we really know whether the ship's computer has holodeck programs of Enterprises prior to the TOS Enterprise?

Sounds to me as if the computer was saying "I only have holodeck programs of the five Federation starships to choose from".

Fact is that the computer doesn't even ask him which NCC-1701 bridge he'd like to see and delivers him the only program available - it's not even the Bridge of the Enterprise but just a Constitution Class Bridge, basically an approximation, but Scotty seemed grateful that he got that, at least.

Bob
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Old July 7 2014, 11:14 PM   #206
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I do think what we saw on the holodeck wasn't just the bridge of some random Constitution-class starship, but that of the original Enterprise herself because that's the ship Scotty told the computer he wanted to see. That particular version of the bridge was probably a preprogrammed default based on how it generally looked during Kirk's 5-year mission.
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Old July 8 2014, 02:23 AM   #207
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

It was the Enterprise bridge. They used prints from an episode were only Kirk was on the bridge (thou if I recall, that was actually a reproduction of the Enterprise, in 1:1 scale. It was enough to fool Kirk for a while.)
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Old July 8 2014, 03:07 AM   #208
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Did they recreate the Enterprise's dedication plaque for that scene too? That right there would be perfect evidence that it was the Ent-nil and not any other Connie.
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Old July 8 2014, 03:37 AM   #209
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

The reproduction was just the 1960s set. "The Mark of Gideon" I believe. To make for a mostly bottle episode. The Next Generation crew would have just taken stills and some shots from that episode, cleaned them up, matted out Kirk and placed in Scotty and Picard via blue or green screen. The only part of the Bridge they recreated was the chairs to sit in for.

Edit: Only part of the shots wer from "The Mark of Gideon" (the shot fo the viewscreen with no one in the seats was from that episode). It seems the rest were from "This Side of Paradise" with a shot of an empty bridge of USS Enterprise.
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Old July 8 2014, 03:56 AM   #210
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The Next Generation crew would have just taken stills and some shots from that episode, cleaned them up, matted out Kirk and placed in Scotty and Picard via blue or green screen. The only part of the Bridge they recreated was the chairs to sit in for.
Er, no they didn't. Only the establishing shot was from Mark of Gideon. The rest was an actual set they built.
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