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Old July 2 2014, 03:58 AM   #166
Dukhat
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
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Heck, for all we know the Lakota was actually the former Enterprise-B since we never actually saw another Excelsior refit other than her.
That doesn't make sense to me. Based on our assumptions that the Enterprise-A might have been originally a starship with a different name, I then would have expected it to be the Lakota-A or something. Unless the Enterprise-B was such a disgrace to Starfleet that somebody felt it necessary to give her a paint job / new name.
That wasn't quite the scenario I had in mind. If we go with the theory that the Enterprise-B was prematurely retired in order to promote the new Ambassador class Enterprise-C, then I was thinking that the Ent-B would then have been rechristened the Lakota and sent on her way to do other missions. Once the Ent-C was destroyed, the Ent-B as the Lakota continued to be operational under her new name.

Granted, this theory is based solely on the Lakota being a reuse of the Ent-B model, and that we never saw another Excelsior with those modifications throughout TNG, DS9, or VOY. Flimsy evidence, yes, and even I don't quite buy it, but it's a theory nonetheless.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That also explains why it would exclude NX-01, which ostensibly -- and according to the novels, DEFINITELY -- became a Federation starship upon founding, but never had a USS identifier.
Huh? The NX-01 was decommissioned before the founding of the Federation. It was never a Federation starship. The novels may have done some retconning in that regard, but novels aren't canon (as much as I would like them to be, at least more than TATV..)
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Old July 2 2014, 06:25 PM   #167
Ronald Held
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Even if the NX-01 was re commissioned it would be under another name and presumably start with NCC.
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Old July 2 2014, 10:12 PM   #168
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Could have been given that refit, or a new engine within that refit hull. Remained an experimental ship, but renamed Dauntless, thus NX-01 USS Dauntless.

Thus no one would flinch at a NX-01-A USS Dauntless, instead of it being an Enterprise, some 115 years later.

Another reason for there to not be another starship Enterprise between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701 is that there was one. One that was planned, perhaps even laid down, but ultimately cancelled. Might have happened more than once. Might have even happened between the destruction of the Enterprise-C and the laying down of the Enterprise-D. Some other project is started, or a ship of a different class is laided down to be the new Enterprise-D, but before it is completed, the Galaxy-class Project finally starts to ramp up, potentally making whatever type so ship was going to be the new Enterprise-D obsolete. That ship is cancelled and the name is given instead to a new Galaxy-class starship.

Last edited by Ithekro; July 3 2014 at 10:17 AM.
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Old July 3 2014, 01:12 PM   #169
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
varek wrote: View Post
Even with retrofits and upgrades, 40 years seems to be a long time for a deep-space ship to function. I would imagine there were many (undetected?) weaknesses and damaged material, with the ship's having been through so many adventures.
The design could continue for 40 or more years, but I think individual ships should be retired--or moved to planetary defense forces--long before they had reached that milestone.
There are plenty of examples of ship or even aircraft that have served for 40 years. Nearly all the American supercarriers served around for 40 years. The nuclear carriers look like they will all serve about 50 years each, with there only real non-service years being major refueling and refits.
The last B-52 rolled off the assembly line in 1962. According to this year's Air Force Almanac, their average age is 51.8 years. There are currently some third-generation pilots flying them.

The average age of our KC-135T tanker fleet is 53.6 years.

The C-130H Spectre gunships average 44 years old.

our T-38 talon trainers are 46.9.

Our F-15D Eagle fighters average 30 years old, the F-16Cs 22.8 years. The A-10s are 32.3.

And those are just airplanes. Fragile, riveted and welded metal constructs that are vigorously exercised and trained with constantly. I imagine a future massive starship will be built MUCH stringer than a B-52.
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Old July 3 2014, 04:35 PM   #170
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

^^ These are some pretty good analogies. With improved materials one could expect starships in the 23rd or 24th Century to last even longer.

Bob
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Old July 3 2014, 05:45 PM   #171
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
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Actually it was.

In TNG's "Relics," when Scotty asked to see a holodeck recreation of the Enterprise, the ship's computer wanted to know which one and specifically said:
"There have been five Federation starships with that name."
Scotty didn't specify he was looking for a Federation starship.
He didn't have to.
He kinda DID, actually. The computer merely ASSUMED he was talking about a Federation starship in the E-D's lineage, something Scotty didn't specify. Neither can you try to make the case that the computer knew he was a Starfleet officer who had previously served on the Enterprise; it didn't ask him "Which of your previous assignments are you looking for?" It listed very FEDERATION STARSHIP named Enterprise.

The computer was trying to be helpful by anticipating what must have been a relatively common request. It narrowly succeeded.

Not at all. It could just easily be a case than in honor of NX-01, no other ship was named Enterprise for a long time.
That's not general how "honor" works in naming conventions.

Not necessarily. It could even be a case that some didn't want another ship to be named Enterprise because it would take away from NX-01.
I can't think of a single example in world history of someone withholding a well-known ship name out of respect for that ship's predecessors. It almost always works the exact opposite direction: the more famous the ship, the more likely it is something else is going to gets its name. The only one that comes close is HMS Victory, and the only reason they never named another one is because the original HMS victory is technically STILL IN SERVICE.

If they didn't give the Enterprise name to another ship, it's because she either did something that the Federation was eager to forget (Kobyashi Maru, maybe?) or she was never actually retired from service and sort of lingered on as an auxiliary or training vessel of some kind until the early 23rd century when they finally decommissioned NCC-01 and gave the name to a Constitution class.
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Old July 3 2014, 05:54 PM   #172
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Obviously the ship's computer knew they had a guest aboard who already lived in the 23rd Century...
No it didn't. Else it would have asked him which of the previous vessels he had served on -- including Jenolan -- he wanted to see. And Scotty definitely never served on the Enterprise-C, which the computer would have realized IF it knew who it was talking to.

Therefore it's a logical conclusion he can only refer to one of the five Federation starships with this name.
Nope. If the computer knew it was a "guest from the past" it would have thought he was referring to one of the ships he had previously served on. The clarification would have been "Your service record indicates that you have served on two Federation vessels with that name."
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Old July 3 2014, 07:11 PM   #173
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
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Scotty didn't specify he was looking for a Federation starship.
He didn't have to.
He kinda DID, actually.
No, he didn't actually and onscreen material proves that to be so. The computer automatically defaulted to which Federation starship Scotty wanted to see. Now, if Scotty wanted to see a non-Federation starship named Enterprise, he would have asked for one, and the computer would have complied. But since that didn't happen, well...
Not at all. It could just easily be a case than in honor of NX-01, no other ship was named Enterprise for a long time.
That's not general how "honor" works in naming conventions.
Actually, naming conventions are mostly arbitrary decisions made by the folks in charge at the time they're done.
Not necessarily. It could even be a case that some didn't want another ship to be named Enterprise because it would take away from NX-01.
I can't think of a single example in world history of someone withholding a well-known ship name out of respect for that ship's predecessors.
Start thinking of an interplanetary future where not everything is the same as in the ancient past. Starfleet and the Federation are similar to navies and governments of centuries ago, but not identical and will naturally have different reasons and ways of doing things. Heck, even today's navies and governments aren't identical as those of centuries ago...
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Old July 3 2014, 08:02 PM   #174
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
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Obviously the ship's computer knew they had a guest aboard who already lived in the 23rd Century...
No it didn't. Else it would have asked him which of the previous vessels he had served on -- including Jenolan -- he wanted to see. And Scotty definitely never served on the Enterprise-C, which the computer would have realized IF it knew who it was talking to.
He was merely a passenger on the Jenolan. And Scotty had never been a captain of any of these vessels to qualify calling it "my" ship.

Given the long life span of humans in the 24th Century the computer limited the choice to Enterprise vessels he could have either been aboard on or have fallen in love with to somehow make sense of his "my" statement (which could include the C or the D).

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Old July 3 2014, 08:40 PM   #175
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...
He was merely a passenger on the Jenolan. And Scotty had never been a captain of any of these vessels to qualify calling it "my" ship.

...

Bob
Well, that's a nitpicky point. In regular colloquial use, "my" certainly can refer to a ship (or job-site or whatever) were you just work. No need to be in command. Ensign Chekov could readily call the Enterprise "my ship" with out overstepping the fact that he never commanded it. Recall in TVH, when Gillian tells Kirk, "You have your ship and I have mine," you don't suppose she was given command of a ship, do you?

On the other hand, Scotty was third in command of Enterprise so he certainly had command qualifications.

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Old July 3 2014, 11:01 PM   #176
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...he could have either been aboard on or have fallen in love with to somehow make sense of his "my" statement (which could include the C or the D).
I considered the two explanations ("my ship" = the ship I own / command vs. "my ship" = the ship I was aboard), didn't I?

Bob
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Old July 4 2014, 03:17 AM   #177
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

There's a bit too much nit-picking going on here. It was a failure on the writers' part, ad also an underestimation of the technology (they didn't have Siri then). Scotty asked the computer to show him "his ship." The computer must have known that Starfleet Captain Montgomery Scott was on board. So, when he asked it to show him "his ship," it follows this could mean the Enterprise (1701, 1701 refit, 1701-A), or possibly the Excelsior (he was "captain" of engineering).

His specifying "Enterprise" narrows the field down. Ideally, the computer should have known who he was, and asked which of the three versions he wanted to see. Instead, they played up the fact that Scotty wanted the *original* (echoed in the title of the episode -- "Relics" -- get it?).

I mean, when he said "1-7-0-1 ... no bloody A, B, ...," why didn't the computer ask him "which 1701? pre-TOS, TOS, or TMP?"
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Old July 4 2014, 04:01 AM   #178
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
He didn't have to.
He kinda DID, actually.
No, he didn't actually and onscreen material proves that to be so. The computer automatically defaulted to which Federation starship Scotty wanted to see. Now, if Scotty wanted to see a non-Federation starship named Enterprise, he would have asked for one
Which is precisely my point. The computer is not trying to be concise, it's artificially narrowing the parameters of his search based on some pre-existing criteria (most likely it's a pretty common request). There could be dozens of Enterprises in the intervening years that were never in Federation service (back when UESPA was still running the exploration program independently, for example) and the computer wouldn't have mentioned them unless Scotty specified that he wasn't looking for a Federation vessel. In much the same way the computer deliberately omitted all three of the aircraft carriers named Enterprise that ALSO had a bridge, it also omitted all the non-Federation Enterprises that have ever existed from the 21st through 24th century. That would undoubtedly include whatever came before 1701 and whatever (if anything) filled the gap from -C to -D.

Actually, naming conventions are mostly arbitrary decisions made by the folks in charge at the time they're done.
And they follow predictable political and historical patterns for the most part. The deviations from those patterns tend to be pretty extraordinary circumstances.

Start thinking of an interplanetary future where not everything is the same as in the ancient past. Starfleet and the Federation are similar to navies and governments of centuries ago...
You can't really have your cake and eat it to. If they're THAT similar to oceanic navies, then some of the precedents set by naval planners can be expected to carry over into starship building. If, on the other hand, you're ready to concede that space is not an ocean and Starfleet is not a navy, then the "honorary status" of the name Enterprise ceases to be relevant altogether and we have to look elsewhere for an explanation.
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Old July 4 2014, 04:07 AM   #179
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
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Obviously the ship's computer knew they had a guest aboard who already lived in the 23rd Century...
No it didn't. Else it would have asked him which of the previous vessels he had served on -- including Jenolan -- he wanted to see. And Scotty definitely never served on the Enterprise-C, which the computer would have realized IF it knew who it was talking to.
He was merely a passenger on the Jenolan. And Scotty had never been a captain of any of these vessels to qualify calling it "my" ship.
He was never captain of the Enterprise either, despite that turning out to be the ship he wanted to see.

Given the long life span of humans in the 24th Century the computer limited the choice to Enterprise vessels he could have either been aboard on or have fallen in love with to somehow make sense of his "my" statement (which could include the C or the D).
And yet, if the computer knew it was talking to Scotty it would have known he never served on the Enterprise-C, as he had already vanished years before that ship was even commissioned. And he certainly wasn't talking about the -D, as there is no record of his EVER serving on the Enterprise-D and the term "My old ship" implies "older than this one."

And again: the computer doesn't even ask him "Which if your old ships did you want to see?" It initially asks him to clarify the parameters of his request. Meaning it has no idea what "My old ship" means and wants him to be more specific. Primarily, this is because the computer has no idea who he is.

It narrowed the search to Federation vessels because that's what it would have done for ANYONE who asked that question.

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
I mean, when he said "1-7-0-1 ... no bloody A, B, ...," why didn't the computer ask him "which 1701? pre-TOS, TOS, or TMP?"
Because no detailed holoscans were made of the refit configuration of the Enterprise (holocams were too bulky and expensive in those days) and therefore none of those configurations are available options anyway. The TOS-version bridge is probably based on the modeling of one of the Constitutions that survived as a museum ship into the 24th century and Scotty was just too drunk to notice the few tiny discrepancies.

Hehe fridge logic
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Old July 4 2014, 06:26 AM   #180
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Or the holographic record of the NCC-1701 is based on its actual bridge module. I think it was the novel "Crossroads" that but forward that the current museum ship for the Constitution-class had had its bridge smashed up before it was retired, but Starfleet had held on to he Famous Five Year Mission bridge module from Kirk's Enterprise that they removed when it was refit in the 2270s. If that was the case then they 'd have all the time in the world to image that thing.
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