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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 22 2014, 12:59 AM   #16
MakeshiftPython
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

I think it's unfortunate that there was all this unnecessary hype over Taylor joining because she's woman and that being a woman would mean better characterizations for the female characters, because I don't think that ever happened. They sort of did the same thing in 1995 when billing Taylor as the co-creator of VOYAGER and the fact that Janeway was a female, but on most circumstances Taylor wrote Janeway the worst, often falling into that Mary Sue trap. Trek didn't need a female writer to serve the female characters better, it needed GOOD writers, regardless of gender. Not to say Taylor wasn't good, she delivered some great episodes here and there (looking at her credits, "The Wounded" is one of my favorites), but I don't think she was in league with the heavy hitters like Moore, Behr, Piller, ect.
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Old January 22 2014, 02:42 AM   #17
Armored Saint
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The gender issue was not meant to introduce a character flaw that the protagonist has to overcome, but to ensure that the female characters don't do their job. The show isn't trying to find ways to make the female characters work, it's trying to find ways to make them NOT work.
On the other hand, there's rarely a story when a character is able to do his job as usual whitout any problem or doesn't have to do it into a critical situation. In The Enemy, if Beverly had been able to treat the Romulan as a Vulcan, it would have only been some words in a Captain's log, not a plot.
Jeyl wrote: View Post
An opportunity to take Picard out of his comfort zone? The episodes we've had so far this season is nothing but Picard out of his comfort zones. The season opened with a shot of Picard as Locutus followed by him killing thousands of his Starfleet comrades and almost assimilating the Earth. The following episode had him coming to terms with the horrors of living with those experiences while at the same time trying to deal with his feelings on wanting to continue his career in Starfleet and dealing with his disapproving brother. Oh! That episode also dealt with Picard dealing with a nosy child as well! Even after that with the first post-borg episode, Data manages to take complete control of the the Enterprise that leaves Picard in a situation where he literally can't do anything.

So yeah, we've actually done the "picard out of his comfort zone" this season, WITH KIDS NO LESS!
You're not wrong, but I think you overcalculate it. I don't think they worked with statistics or a grid about covered themes. It's easy to make this kind of analysis when the season is totally done. It's not the same deal you're developping it.

Jeri Taylor also worked on Unification and made the novelization. As Suddenly Human, this story explores the father/son love and the difficulty to express it. In the novel, D'Tan as a great affection for Spock. In Suddenly Human, you can see the love between the kid and his adoptive father when they knock their heads eachother. So, of course it's not a female empowerment episode, but through the virile atmosphere you see something else.

If I was a demagogue, I would reproach you to ask that women do their job of taking care of a kid.
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Old January 22 2014, 03:56 PM   #18
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
As Suddenly Human, this story explores the father/son love and the difficulty to express it.
You bring up an interesting point with the whole father/son dynamic detail. Not only has Season Four put Picard out of his comfort zone in every episode thus far, "Suddenly Human" is also the third episode in a row that deals with characters having a father/son story line. We got it with Wesley in Family, Data in Brothers, and now Picard in Suddenly Human. We're kind of running a little stale here especially with this episode kind of being "bad".

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
So, of course it's not a female empowerment episode, but through the virile atmosphere you see something else.
Yep. And soon we'll be getting another one of those "father/son" dynamics very soon with this season which will take the extra step of removing a well liked female character by playing the "Women in Refrigerators" trope to it's absolute depiction. Do your worst, Ron Moore.
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Old January 23 2014, 07:02 AM   #19
Rory1080p
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

really really didn't like this episode, just so much about it was badly done, as has been said the Talarians are just awful as a species and really seem a confused concept throughout the show, I also hate the fact that it basically says "hey, it's a messed up person who need support but will we use the councillor? NO, let's use Picard and make it super awkward" and then worse still the kid goes back to the aliens who killed his family??? just as he is remembering his life before???: NO NO NO NO NO, this is really a very bad episode that just goes so much away from what Trek should be about, I forgot how bad it was till I rewatched it on the blu-ray recently, but seriously, it's one of those really bad episodes that lets the show down for sure.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:47 PM   #20
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Oh, geez. I just thought of something. These aliens murdered this child's parents and essentially "assimilated" him into their culture without his consent. That detail alone could have made for some interesting comparisons for Picard being assimilated by the Borg, not to mention giving him some genuine motivation in wanting to take part in this. Both the aliens and the Borg captured a life form through brutal force and made it one of them without their consent (Picard through choice and Jeremiah through inability). After what Picard experienced with the Borg, wouldn't he be more hostile towards Aliens who do this sort of thing and committed to bringing Jeremiah back to his own race?
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Old January 23 2014, 06:27 PM   #21
JD5000
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

That was my take on it too, Jeyl. Especially so soon after Best of Both Worlds.
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Old January 23 2014, 08:38 PM   #22
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Good spot. I hadn't noticed that. But then that would have meant the dreaded "C" word...
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Old January 24 2014, 12:30 AM   #23
MakeshiftPython
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Oh, geez. I just thought of something. These aliens murdered this child's parents and essentially "assimilated" him into their culture without his consent. That detail alone could have made for some interesting comparisons for Picard being assimilated by the Borg, not to mention giving him some genuine motivation in wanting to take part in this. Both the aliens and the Borg captured a life form through brutal force and made it one of them without their consent (Picard through choice and Jeremiah through inability). After what Picard experienced with the Borg, wouldn't he be more hostile towards Aliens who do this sort of thing and committed to bringing Jeremiah back to his own race?
Not sure that would make a good comparison, given that not only was Picard turned into a Borg, but that the Borg used his very knowledge and insight for destruction on his own people, and the boy's assimilation was of a different nature. Now that I think of it, this story would have been a lot better if it were done on VOY with Seven of Nine, with her taking the initiative because she would understand exactly what the boy went through as she was assimilated at a young age and that she grew up as a Borg. With Picard, it really is awkward, and the only connection they would make is being abducted at one point, but that's about it.
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Old January 24 2014, 12:46 PM   #24
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
With Picard, it really is awkward, and the only connection they would make is being abducted at one point, but that's about it.
At least that would be something to work off of rather than just "You're the captain and you're male. Suck it up and do it!". And any other comparisons that aren't that well connected could easily be used as a means of Picard to come to the same resolution. He starts out believing that it's the same thing, but realizing that they're not.
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Old January 24 2014, 07:14 PM   #25
Armored Saint
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Oh, geez. I just thought of something. These aliens murdered this child's parents and essentially "assimilated" him into their culture without his consent.
I thought about this grey area where a space viking decides to save a child during his own raid and I realized me too that was Borgish.
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Old January 27 2014, 07:27 PM   #26
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
So much cringe in this one, but it borders on "so bad it's good" territory. I get some chuckles out of it.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
What bothers me is that the only reason this gender issue exists was to make "Suddenly Human" a Picard episode. Jeremaiah doesn't learn to tolerate the female gender at the end, because that's not the point of the story. It's about the moral implications of taking a child, even though he was abducted, away from a family that raised him and for all intents and purposes love him.
It's also about the opportunity to take Picard out of his comfort zone by forcing him to deal with children, as is also the case (more humorously) in "Disaster".

jimbotron wrote: View Post
The only child actor who I felt did a great job was the kid who played Ethan/"Jean-Luc" in Future Imperfect.
What about the actor who played Rene and "Rascals" Picard?
I always thought it would've made Nemesis better if this actor played Shinzon as a young man and then mature to the point that Sir Patrick would take over the role near the end.
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Old January 27 2014, 11:24 PM   #27
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

T'Cal wrote: View Post
I always thought it would've made Nemesis better if this actor played Shinzon as a young man and then mature to the point that Sir Patrick would take over the role near the end.
Neat idea, but I'm sure some would have been inclined to think it was too similar to the Spock situation in Star Trek III.

On the other hand, it wouldn't have been (for me, anyway) like Superman: The Movie, when Christopher Reeve finally shows up, and I'd be thinking I liked the guy who played young Clark Kent more!

Oh, and I'm not normally one to criticize something without at least some observations as to why...but in this case I'll just say that I'd watch Shades of Gray over Suddenly Human any day.
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Old January 27 2014, 11:47 PM   #28
les.kelly
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Re: Episode of the Week: 4x04 "Suddenly Human"

look at the deleted scenes in nemesis, adding some of those back would have made the movie a lot better, they made sense. also remove the stupid crap with troi's "mental rape", and i really wanted to see the scimitar battle the starfleet task force instead of those dumb looking new romulan ships!
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