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View Poll Results: Rate Protectors.
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Old February 24 2014, 05:28 PM   #151
Thrawn
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Right. I know. And the next two books will bring them to the end of THAT FIRST YEAR, of which we've read about 8 months so far, not to the end of THE THIRD YEAR, which is what Paris thought.
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Old February 24 2014, 06:19 PM   #152
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Right. I know. And the next two books will bring them to the end of THAT FIRST YEAR, of which we've read about 8 months so far, not to the end of THE THIRD YEAR, which is what Paris thought.
For some reason I was taking Kirsten Beyer's comments to mean that we were going to see something on the order of Enterprise's "Romulan War" books where the story over the next two books would take place over the next 28 months.
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Old February 25 2014, 01:37 AM   #153
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
You misread - she said the end of the first of three years, not the end of three years.
Oops. My bad. I re-read it, and you are absolutely right. Thanks for the catch
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Old February 25 2014, 02:43 AM   #154
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Gosh...no...I should really get on that, right?

Ummmm....do you honestly think I would ever do something like that without knowing exactly how and why this was happening?

The only thing that has surprised me so far is that no one seems to even have a clue where I'm going with this. (Insert evil laugh.)
Hey Kirsten thanks for the reply. I was talking about the widely traveled races we saw in the show itself. I have definite faith not only that you have your own plots planned out, but that they will be awesome. Count me as one who doesn't yet know where you are going with that plot element, but I'm excited to find out. Maybe it will even explain some of the widely traveled species I was asking about from the show like the Talaxian, Devore, and Malon.

As usual, I was intentionally vague, figuring travel time, time spent exploring, etc. I don't want to try and get more specific about it now. Suffice it to say that the first time we see Janeway before the memorial service we are in September and by the time we are about to return to the Confederacy it is early January.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I will just go with it then.
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Old February 26 2014, 11:58 AM   #155
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just finished this yesterday. Quick thoughts - very nice, a pleasant quiet rest and recovery period as everyone gets over the apocalyptic last entry and reaffirms their worldviews and priorities.

But it seemed oddly... scattered. Not one big story but lots of little stories weaving in and out of each other, thematically linked but not plot-linked necessarily. And unbalanced too - storylines seemed to climax at only half-way or two-thirds through the book, and then something new would start. And many bits and pieces left deliberately unfinished too. So lots of little stories, but at the same time very clearly 'part one' of a much larger story. It's a good job we know this was planned as part of an ongoing series or else that would be quite frustrating.

This really seemed to get back to the raison d'etre of the nu-Voyager series in a way, by following up on whatever happened to the Borg, the Caeliar and the other DQ races we only saw once. I was struck by how every time they bumped into somebody they knew, they said "They won't be very happy to see us" or "We ended things badly" or some such. That's kind of a sad comment on TV Voyager's hard-headed-alien-of-the-week trope, really. How many times in seven years did they actually meet someone they got along with? Not too many.

The business with the Ark Planet felt like Voyager was doing what Titan is supposed to do (now that Titan isn't doing what Titan is supposed to do anymore). A lovely strange new worlds story that served to give everybody a chance to be a good guy, do something they could feel proud of, help people (or things). And character development for Harry! Wonder of wonders.

Oh... my heart broke for The Doctor. I didn't need the actual text of Zimmerman's letter - I realised what had happened when Barclay told Janeway the letter existed. The poor guy, he was so upset and twisted around that he had to go and voluntarily get his heart ripped out of himself to be able to cope. That's just... horrible.

Okay, going to read the rest of the thread now.

.
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Old February 26 2014, 02:07 PM   #156
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Finished the novel yesterday. Overall I enjoyed it, but it felt a bit unfinished - which is okay, given that it's apparently the first in a trilogy from what I understand.

the Doctor: Hm, another "The Swarm"-like situation looming ahead by trying to avoid a "Latent Image"-problem? I can't reread Zimmerman's letter right now, but was the Doctor aware of all ramifications (I mean the planned ones right now: his love for Seven fading into the background) or did he just ask for a quick fix? And I felt Seven's observation of the Doctor's behaviour being reminiscent of... was it Equinox, part 2? ... well, in any way, of the time where his moral subroutines were damaged quite disastrous. So I'm really looking forward to learning more.

Cambridge/Seven/Axum: I always wanted to know what happened to Axum after Unimatrix Zero - so I was glad to see that realized. I found the behaviour of SF Medical very disturbing when they dealt with (= got rid off) the Doctor and how they perceived Axum as nothing but an enemy combatant and therefore a test subject (or rather object) without any rights. What Seven felt through their connection (and the epilogue) only confirmed that unease. Janeway's attitude, though, bothered me the most. Her point of view that SFM knows what they are doing and her belief that Axum will be handled correctly appeared very naive and even disinterested - especially considering the fact that a former Borg/enemy and a technology much more sophisticated than the Federation's are involved. She should have pushed for more information here. But back to Seven, or rather Cambridge: This guy is a counselor? Granted, the relationship between Seven and Axum was never really resolved, so it's okay for him to feel a bit insecure, but the way he practically ended the relationship (not yet overtly but at least interally) screamed immaturity and insecurity even towards his own feelings for Seven because she certainly didn't give him any reason to doubt her. Just the fact that she wants to meet Axum doesn't endanger her relationship with Cambridge - even further, I'd say it shows her level of maturity to want to confront and resolve a past relationship.

the Ark-planet-plot: I really liked the idea of VOY and Demeter for once not having to fight for their lives - and I enjoyed having them teach the proctors how to save the planet. And I love O'Donnell - to see Chakotay very slowly come to terms with how things work on Demeter was quite fun to read. *g* I'm looking forward to seeing where the Confederacy business is heading.

Paris: As said before, I think Julia's way out of line, grieving or not. I understand where Beyer's coming from having read her recent post here, but honestly, shouldn't Miral's welfare be the main focus? And what kind of court should react to a contention of the parents' fitness just because the grandmother was lied to - where is the relevance to the child's welfare? And even the suggestion that every further child would be taken away as well - what kind of legal system/interpretation is that?!? Of course, Tom and B'Elanna didn't handle the whole matter correctly. They acted out of panic, and of course have to face the consequences of lying. But grief is one thing, trying to take away a child quite a different thing. And I hope this whole (legal) process will resolve quickly - because if not, I'd have to doubt the Federation's legal system. On another note, I could have done without B'Elanna's nesting habits, though. I realize that she didn't have much to contribute to the overall plot but her attempts at renovating seemed a bit over the top.

Janeway: I have never been a fan of hers and I really hope that she won't take over the book series as she did with the TV-series especially given the way the other characters finally had air to breathe again. I liked her conversation with Picard, her dealings with her mother and that Vulcan secretary. *g* But her breakdown and change of heart came a bit too sudden - and left me with a stale taste in my mouth. As said above her belief in the system, when she herself manipulated and sometimes ignored it whenever *she* felt necessary, annoyed me - be it Axum, be it Tom and B'Elanna, be it The Doctor. I don't know if I like the person she has become after her breakdown because she seems aloof and not as involved (and placing Icheb in SFM doesn't really change that because honestly, what's a cadet going to do?). Her reaction to Chakotay's not being willing to tell her where B'Elanna is awfully reminded me of Scorpion, part I, and Janeway and Chakotay's discussion there, which is, IMO, where the TV-series descended from being about 2 crews to being a show about absolute leader!Janeway. I really hope this will work out differently this time. I guess we'll see in just another 8 months. *g*
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Old February 26 2014, 10:28 PM   #157
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Paris: As said before, I think Julia's way out of line, grieving or not. I understand where Beyer's coming from having read her recent post here, but honestly, shouldn't Miral's welfare be the main focus? And what kind of court should react to a contention of the parents' fitness just because the grandmother was lied to - where is the relevance to the child's welfare? And even the suggestion that every further child would be taken away as well - what kind of legal system/interpretation is that?!? Of course, Tom and B'Elanna didn't handle the whole matter correctly. They acted out of panic, and of course have to face the consequences of lying. But grief is one thing, trying to take away a child quite a different thing. And I hope this whole (legal) process will resolve quickly - because if not, I'd have to doubt the Federation's legal system.
They didn't just lie to Julia - they falsified records and told everyone that B'Elanna and Miral had died in the Borg Invasion, with the intent of taking Miral to the Delta Quadrant. Add to that B'Elanna's questionably legal creation of a quantum slipstream drive, and Julia might have a strong case against them.
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Old February 27 2014, 07:29 AM   #158
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Claudia - Interesting review. I really enjoyed reading your take on different plot developments. Here are some of my thoughts in response to a couple of things you pointed out.

Claudia wrote: View Post
As said before, I think Julia's way out of line, grieving or not. I understand where Beyer's coming from having read her recent post here, but honestly, shouldn't Miral's welfare be the main focus? And what kind of court should react to a contention of the parents' fitness just because the grandmother was lied to - where is the relevance to the child's welfare?
The way I see the situation, it’s not so much that lying to his mother casts doubt on Miral's welfare. It’s more a matter that this is nothing new to Tom. Tom has always been a bit of a “wayward child”. It’s been awhile since I last read Pathways, but from what I remember, he is portrayed as incredibly rebellious and only thinking of himself. He had many times in his youth where he ignored what was best in order to “save” himself. Julia stood by him through all that. She believed in the person he could be. And after he returned from the Delta Quadrant, she believed he had achieved that. He had put his demons behind him and learned to think of others, be reliable, do what was right. By lying to her about something so serious and personal, from her perspective, he has shown that he hasn’t really changed at all. He is still irresponsible and immature and reckless. And with that, a case could be made that he is not a fit parent.

Claudia wrote: View Post
Janeway's attitude, though, bothered me the most. Her point of view that SFM knows what they are doing and her belief that Axum will be handled correctly appeared very naive and even disinterested
I don’t think it’s that unreasonable. Janeway is a Starfleet officer and she believes in the ideals of Starfleet. While there will always be grey areas, or decisions a person doesn’t always agree with, the idea that Starfleet medical could be capable of treating a person as a science project is a huge step over that line, and quite unbelievable for someone who believes herself to be part of a civilized and advanced organization/society. You yourself said:

Claudia wrote: View Post
I found the behaviour of SF Medical very disturbing when they dealt with (= got rid off) the Doctor and how they perceived Axum as nothing but an enemy combatant and therefore a test subject (or rather object) without any rights. What Seven felt through their connection (and the epilogue) only confirmed that unease.
I think that’s exactly how Janeway views the idea that Starfleet Medical could be capable of such behavior. Extremely disturbing and, equally, unlikely. There must be some misunderstanding. Starfleet would never go that far. It’s not necessarily her being naive as much it is her unable to accept that they would actually act so callously. And I don’t blame her for that. It’s the same reaction she had in Equinox when she found out that a Starfleet captain and crew could actually be using a sentient species to help them get home. She was furious. And if it’s confirmed that Starfleet Medical is treating Axum in an unacceptable way, I imagine she will be equally as furious. But for now, she wants to believe in the best of Starfleet, so she's giving them the benefit of the doubt.


Additionally, I believe the “disinterest” you saw wasn’t so much her not caring about a potentially harmful situation as it was her showing some of the new perspective she gained from her time away. Janeway has always been very involved in the welfare of her crew. In some ways, she was micromanaging everything, taking matters into her own hands and not trusting that others were capable of taking care of themselves. While this is good, to a certain extent, she often seemed to take it to an extreme. Her experiences in this book have helped her to step back and allow others to take care of things themselves, which they are certainly capable of doing. In other words, it wasn't that she didn't care, but she was trusting those around her to handle the situation appropriately and that they didn’t need her to be interfering or rushing in to save the day once again. From what I understand of your views on Janeway, this is progress in the right direction rather than returning to Delta Quadrant Janeway.

Claudia wrote: View Post
Her reaction to Chakotay's not being willing to tell her where B'Elanna is awfully reminded me of Scorpion, part I, and Janeway and Chakotay's discussion there, which is, IMO, where the TV-series descended from being about 2 crews to being a show about absolute leader!Janeway.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're referring to here, but really, I had no problem with this. It wasn’t a question of a difference of opinion but a matter of honesty and deception. I thought her reaction was completely justified. It’s never a pleasant feeling when you know that someone is lying to you. More than that, she is an admiral and the person in charge of the fleet. She needs to be able to trust Chakotay, as captain, to be honest with her. If he refuses to give her accurate information for whatever reason, it could seriously damage the system. Janeway has people she needs to answer to, too, and she knows they’re watching her closely. She was also the one to interact with Julia and knows how she will react when Tom is the only one to return home. She was acting on what she knew of the situation to make it as smooth and successful as possible. By leaving Miral and B’Elanna in the Delta Quadrant, it automatically makes them look bad. Not a good way to start their mediation. Yes, ultimately, Chakotay knew an important piece of information that would have influenced her decision process. But the bottom line is that she reacted as anyone would when someone you know and supervise deliberately lies to you.
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Old February 27 2014, 11:14 AM   #159
Claudia
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Masiral wrote: View Post
They didn't just lie to Julia - they falsified records and told everyone that B'Elanna and Miral had died in the Borg Invasion, with the intent of taking Miral to the Delta Quadrant. Add to that B'Elanna's questionably legal creation of a quantum slipstream drive, and Julia might have a strong case against them.
But is that case really about Miral's welfare? It's about Tom and B'Elanna falsifying records and lying... honestly, that doesn't say anything about their fitness as parents. If so, then how many children should be removed from their parents?

And @ stormy, I understand the point about Paris from Pathfinder etc - still that's a judgment about Tom, not about whether Miral's in an environment where she can't thrive. Because bluntly speaking, if it's solely about Tom's past behaviour they should have judged him unfit for procreation back at the NZL-penal colony and have him neutered. That amounts to the same thing as now stating he's unfit for parenthood because of his most recent behaviour (which is seen as continuation of his past behaviour).

Honestly, I thought Tom was the only sane person in this whole affair at the end (except for Miral).

Janeway/Chakotay: I get where Janeway is coming from, she's got a bigger picture to look at right now than just one ship - but OTOH she disappointed Chakotay as well by not revealing all the facts, by not listening, by IMO transfering their business dealings as admiral and captain to the personal level. I think as a captain who has to protect his crew Chakotay was right in not revealing where B'Elanna was as Janeway didn't have all the facts (i.e. B'Elanna's pregnancy) at that point. That was the point that bothered me in Scorpion, part I. Back then I had the impression that Janeway thought that standing with her means to always agree with her (sometimes harebrained) decisions. It doesn't.

I'm really interested to see in how that relationship is going to be continued. Right now, though, I'm not sure that everything's going to work out...
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Old February 27 2014, 06:46 PM   #160
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I skipped The Eternal Tide but picked up Protectors because I had some extra time on my hands and was bored.

Overall, a solid effort by Beyer (I didn't expect any less). Though I just didn't buy the Julia Paris plot. Even with friends in high places, it seems more would be required than "my feelings are hurt" to even get to the point of mediation over custody being ordered. To order the family home with no evidence at all of Miral's mistreatment was just too much for me to buy.
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Old February 27 2014, 07:54 PM   #161
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BillJ wrote: View Post
I skipped The Eternal Tide but picked up Protectors because I had some extra time on my hands and was bored.

Overall, a solid effort by Beyer (I didn't expect any less). Though I just didn't buy the Julia Paris plot. Even with friends in high places, it seems more would be required than "my feelings are hurt" to even get to the point of mediation over custody being ordered. To order the family home with no evidence at all of Miral's mistreatment was just too much for me to buy.
I would encourage you to pick The Eternal Tide, personally thought it was brilliant.
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Old February 28 2014, 06:27 PM   #162
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Finished, early and brief impression.

This book felt, to me, like a distillation of the things I really disliked about Voyager when it was on air. The writing is good, but a lot of it just felt too much like "Voyager crew vs the universe" with the universe consistently being overly wrong-headed.
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Old February 28 2014, 07:34 PM   #163
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Finished, early and brief impression.

This book felt, to me, like a distillation of the things I really disliked about Voyager when it was on air. The writing is good, but a lot of it just felt too much like "Voyager crew vs the universe" with the universe consistently being overly wrong-headed.
That's really interesting. For me her books have been the thing that actually made me like Voyager. These characters feel real and the situations they face don't seem any more outlandish than the ones the Enterprise, Titan or any other crew has faced.
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Old February 28 2014, 08:38 PM   #164
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Well, I felt that way about the first couple of books in the series, starting with Full Circle through Children, but The Eternal Tide and Protectors felt like it went the opposite direction. Though I'm admitting here that I guess I wasn't super fond of TET's take on the Q, especially compared to the other Q portrayal ala Q&A.
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Old February 28 2014, 09:03 PM   #165
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Re: VOY: Protectors by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ That does make sense. Personally TET was my favorite book in the series so far.
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