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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 17 2014, 08:23 PM   #1
Dale Sams
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Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Without peace and aid from the Federation, the Empire will collapse/break up. Now this isn't some internal last-second coup that we may have seen when the USSR was about to break-up. This is a long drawn-out plan with aid from Federation conspirators*. What exactly is Chang (who doesn't seem stupid) and friends plan?

You could say, he wasn't thinking that far ahead, but the very nature of the length of time it takes to make a conspiricy makes that unlikely. These aren't your normal block-headed TNG Klingons.

*Also the Federation conspiracy makes sense. You can help the Klingons and have them rise up again to possibly conquer you. Which DID happen in one reality based on the most tenuous of events, and then there was the Accords being torn up in the Dominion Events.

OR, you can let them collapse under their own weight, completely from their own hubris. Thus legitimizing your own political way of life for everyone to see.

and it makes perfect sense a Vulcan was involved. Instead of being all pissy, she should have just said what I just did. And I hope the Romulan ambassador wasn't worried. It makes even more sense from his point of view. They should have been the ones to come up with the idea. Maybe the Romulans promised to help Chang and then would have pulled the rug out.

Last edited by Dale Sams; January 17 2014 at 09:34 PM.
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Old January 17 2014, 08:53 PM   #2
Greg Cox
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Without peace and aid from the Federation, the Empire will collapse/break up. Now this isn't some internal last-second coup that we may have seen when the USSR was about to break-up. This is a long drawn-out plan with aid from Federation conspirators*. What exactly is Chang (who doesn't seem stupid) and friends plan? .
My impression is that Chang and his fellow hard-liners wanted to invade the Federation and take their resources, rather than rely on the Federation's charity. And if the invasion failed . . . well, at least they went down fighting in one glorious final battle. Victory or defeat, live free or die . . . that kinda thing.

They wanted a military solution, not a diplomatic one.

(There's a scene, remember, where some hard-line Klingon generals present Azetbur with a plan for an all-out military strike against the Federation, but she shoots them down.)
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Old January 17 2014, 09:06 PM   #3
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
My impression is that Chang and his fellow hard-liners wanted to invade the Federation and take their resources, rather than rely on the Federation's charity.
This was my impression as well - that they wanted to take the resources they needed, either from the Federation or from other conquests, because they saw that as being Klingon, and they saw negotiating peace as weak.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:12 PM   #4
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?

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Old January 17 2014, 09:18 PM   #5
Greg Cox
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?

Framing Kirk for the assassination, which required Brock's assistance, would increase the chance of war and turn the Klingon people against cooperating with Starfleet. It wasn't enough just to kill Gorkon. You had to completely discredit the idea of making peace with the Federation.

Instead of Gorkon becoming a martyr to peace, he could instead become a battle cry. "Remember Gorkon! Death to the Federation!"

I don't think Chang expected Azetbur to continue the peace process after the assassination. He probably thought she would opt for revenge against Starfleet. And I don't think he planned on the Klingon judge commuting the death sentence against Kirk and McCoy.
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Old January 17 2014, 11:29 PM   #6
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Instead of Gorkon becoming a martyr to peace, he could instead become a battle cry. "Remember Gorkon! Death to the Federation!"
Yup, an outside enemy is a good way to have an internal cohesion. Assasinating Gorkon from inside would have been a suicidal moove. It would have divided the Empire at the worst time.
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Old January 17 2014, 11:55 PM   #7
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?

Framing Kirk for the assassination, which required Brock's assistance, would increase the chance of war and turn the Klingon people against cooperating with Starfleet. It wasn't enough just to kill Gorkon. You had to completely discredit the idea of making peace with the Federation.

Instead of Gorkon becoming a martyr to peace, he could instead become a battle cry. "Remember Gorkon! Death to the Federation!"

I don't think Gorkon expected Azetbur to continue the peace process after the assassination. He probably thought she would opt for revenge against Starfleet. And I don't think he planned on the Klingon judge commuting the death sentence against Kirk and McCoy.
Yet his last words were, "Don't let it end this way."
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Old January 18 2014, 01:31 AM   #8
Greg Cox
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?

Framing Kirk for the assassination, which required Brock's assistance, would increase the chance of war and turn the Klingon people against cooperating with Starfleet. It wasn't enough just to kill Gorkon. You had to completely discredit the idea of making peace with the Federation.

Instead of Gorkon becoming a martyr to peace, he could instead become a battle cry. "Remember Gorkon! Death to the Federation!"

I don't think Gorkon expected Azetbur to continue the peace process after the assassination. He probably thought she would opt for revenge against Starfleet. And I don't think he planned on the Klingon judge commuting the death sentence against Kirk and McCoy.
Yet his last words were, "Don't let it end this way."
Oops. My mistake. I meant Chang expected Azetbur to seek revenge.

Let me fix that to avoid any future confusion.
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Old January 18 2014, 11:22 AM   #9
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?
Framing Kirk for the assassination, which required Brock's assistance, would increase the chance of war and turn the Klingon people against cooperating with Starfleet. It wasn't enough just to kill Gorkon. You had to completely discredit the idea of making peace with the Federation.
Yes Greg I get that, but the point I was making is that Chang didn't need help from the federation to do all that.

It wasn't the idea of the federation conspirators to have Kirk (who the Klingons hate) be the one to escort Gorkon to Earth, that was all Spock's doing.

Gorkon's ship could have been escorted by any starship (and captain) and Chang's plan to have a cloaked ship fire on Gorkon's ship and have two people assassin Gorkon still would have worked, getting Kirk was just a extra for Chang.

The only Klingon who saw the two assassins actually beam aboard was quickly killed, it apparently wasn't part of the plan for the beam in to be witnessed, so the two assassins (Klingons posing as Humans?) could have been already aboard Gorkon's ship.

Why did Chang need anyone from within the federation?


Last edited by T'Girl; January 18 2014 at 11:33 AM.
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Old January 18 2014, 11:34 AM   #10
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

... It was in the script.
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Old January 18 2014, 12:18 PM   #11
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

I think it was explicitly mentioned in the Starfleet briefing at the beginning of the movie that some elements of the Klingon government/military would consider it more honourable to go down fighting instead of "surrendering" to (= accepting help from) the Federation.

They wanted to instigate a war so that they have an opportunity to die like warriors.

Chang must have been pretty disappointed when Kirk decided to surrender himself right after the assassination of Gorkon. That didn't go according to plan, because Kirk was supposed to defend himself and fire at the Klingon flagship and hence start a war.
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Old January 18 2014, 12:33 PM   #12
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Also, I don't think Chang's plan hinged on Kirk's presence. He just needed a Federation ship on the scene for the assassination. I imagine Chang did the Klingon equivalent of a happy dance when he found out he could pin Gorkon's murder on THE James T. Kirk. Of course, the plan might have worked had Kirk not been there...
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Old January 18 2014, 05:18 PM   #13
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

What's funny is if the assassin had seen Kirk he needn't have fired at all. Kirk (and Sulu) destroy a priceless prototype that was in orbit guarding the conference, then beam down like insane maniacs and tackle the President. All after invading Klingon space and breaking Kirk out of prison. Starfleet is full of crazy, paranoid idiots.

Assassin: "Yeah...that'll work" (wraps up his business and leaves.)
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Old January 18 2014, 06:10 PM   #14
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
What's funny is if the assassin had seen Kirk he needn't have fired at all. Kirk (and Sulu) destroy a priceless prototype that was in orbit guarding the conference, then beam down like insane maniacs and tackle the President. All after invading Klingon space and breaking Kirk out of prison. Starfleet is full of crazy, paranoid idiots.

Assassin: "Yeah...that'll work" (wraps up his business and leaves.)
They Had Valeris's Admission. of course the Assassin didn't know that. But yeah the Assassin still trying to shoot the president after Kirk had beamed down was pretty stupid. what I'm amazed at is there were not a ton of ships in orbit of and around Khitomer. (Fed and Klingon, other races who had a stake in the negotiations. I'm surprised the Enterprise wasn't siezed on sight.)
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Old January 18 2014, 06:32 PM   #15
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Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

I'm not so sure that if the destruction of the prototype could be really used against Kirk and Sulu. If you are a pragmatical Klingon, you will see this new technology as both dangerous for the domestic security and not so useful for the battle because the opponent is able to adapt his weaponry. If you're a liberal Klingon, you will see this as a dishonorable terror tool and a starter for an arms race. It's easy to appear as a fanatic by defending this new kind of cloaked ship. From the Federation side, this prototype can only be welcomed by the Cartwright's camp.
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