RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,163
Posts: 5,402,919
Members: 24,752
Currently online: 387
Newest member: xjkl123

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 22 2014, 03:47 AM   #121
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

^
This.

Palpatine was one of the greatest and most cunning and manipulative political masterminds of galactic history. If you omit the Battle of Naboo and the Clone Wars, he achieved his Empire almost without the firing of a shot.

He was the great puppetmaster of the Saga and fooled everybody until the last moment, even Master Yoda.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 04:13 AM   #122
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
There's the theory that Palpatine knew of Anakin's creation by the midichlorians and waited patiently for him to surface, but that's just conjecture and I can't recall if the novel Darth Plagueis confirmed this or not.
Actually, Darth Plagueis seemed to contradict such a theory. Palpatine is informed by Dooku that Qui-Gon brought back a (former) slave boy from Tatooine; he is told of Anakin's exploits, his midichlorian count, and Qui-Gon's belief that he stands at the center of a vergence in the Force and that finding him was the will of the Force. Palpatine, concerned, immediately contacts Plagueis with the news.

DWF wrote:
He did say at the end of TPM that he intended to keep a close on Anakin in the future.
Well, yes - but that was after Anakin had already won the Boonta, blown up the droid control ship, and been inducted into the Jedi order. Of course Palpatine's going to be keeping a eye on him after that. However, there is really no indication that Palpatine even knew of Anakin's existence before the events of TPM.

Ancient Mariner wrote:
It underscores how out-of-touch and rigid the Jedi have become ... too beholden to their "Code" to see the real threat ... until it was too late.
As Mace Windu mused in one of the books, the real attachment of the Jedi was to the Republic itself. They just couldn't conceive that the leader of the Republic they served and the ultimate villain they were seeking happened to be one and the same, until it was too late - and to be fair, from their POV such an idea would be counterintuitive to say the least.
__________________
"Your advertising's just dandy. Folks'd never guess you ain't got a thing to sell."

Last edited by Set Harth; January 22 2014 at 04:50 AM.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 04:37 AM   #123
Ancient Mariner
Rear Admiral
 
Ancient Mariner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm going to need a bigger boat ...
View Ancient Mariner's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Counter-intuitive ... and counter-the-code. Mace's line from TPM, "The Code forbids it," is straight out of Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces" which asserts that the Hero's Journey is a transformative one - not just for the hero, but the out-dated, in-need-of-renewal world the hero inhabits. Anakin becomes an "Angel of Death" (loosely interpreted) - a transformative individual, sowing the seeds of renewal we get in ROTJ. He's the bolt of lightning and ensuing forest fire, bringing about the end of the old, and the potential of the new.
__________________
Ancient Mariner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 06:23 AM   #124
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

teacake wrote: View Post
I've wondered this for a long time.. did Anakin use the Force to emotionally manipulate Padme into loving him and overlooking his flaws?

"You don't need to see his identification" could just as easily be "You don't need to see a reason for this behavior". He could have started out with just a bit of handwaving to smooth things out so she wasn't shitty about something one day and just gotten more and more into it until she was addicted to him, bound to him, and blind to him. Total emotional abuse.
teacake wrote: View Post
CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
She's no dummy, he would have to hide it from her. I'm sure he didn't need to actually hand wave all the time. Probably had it down to just rubbing his fingers together "nervously".
If he actually Force-manipulated her, it would explain sooooo much, for instance how she went from being independent and no-nonsense to sentimental and completely oblivious to Anakin's emo-ness and downward spiral.

She started off as being good at observing things. She ended up as a doofus...well, to be fair, shortly before he Force-choked her, she sort of snapped out of it, but Episode 1 Padme would never simply give up on life because her marriage fell apart, especially with 2 babies needing her. I might be less ragey about this if I imagine Anakin manipulating her in my head canon. Good call.
Yes I think it makes sense. It explains her own character deterioration and even more so to me it seems like an inevitable choice Anakin would make. He needs to be loved by her and if he can just tweak her perceptions a bit so she's happier that's good right? Because he wants her to be happy.. with him.

Even though she was probably free of the direct influence of him in the end her whole psyche was damaged still which is why it was easy for her to give up even though she had two babies, something totally out of character for her in TPM. Died of a broken heart? Well she had those babies to love, babies she already loved when pregnant with them. But if he was force brainwashing her all those years there wasn't any room for love for anything but him and when he attacked her he crushed everything he'd rewired her into being.

I'm not too clear on the time frame though, how long from the force choking to the birth? Because she didn't look that pg with twins in the force choking but the babies were obviously well along and viable at the birth.
Actually, this is a nice complement to the idea I floated here.

The main thing that led me to my idea/theory, of a psychic link through the Force, was the simultaneity of her giving birth and his becoming the cyber-Vader we knew from the OT, with the cutting back and forth between those two scenes and with her screaming right after his. The chapter is called "Birth and Rebirth" on DVD.

Another point is that the Emperor tells Vader that Vader killed Padmé. A lie that he choked her to death, yes, but what if, from a certain point of view, it's true? In fact, she's just died when the Emperor says that. I can't assume that that's a coincidence, either.

Now, Padmé is already dying when she arrives on the planetoid to give birth. (In fact, I should revise my theory to indicate that she was already in trouble before going into labor.) If there is a kind of psychic bond between Anakin and Padmé during "Birth and Rebirth", then it was already present by then. I believe that your idea, that he was, whether consciously or subconsciously, manipulating her all along, therefore fits perfectly with mine.

In any case, it has to be something that the medical droids can't pick up. If it were simply a result of her falling under the influence of a controlling abuser, the medical droids should be able to measure that. No, it has to be something to do with the Force, that's beyond their experience, something that is—as it were—supernatural.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 11:35 AM   #125
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

I read your post and in my head I could see drunk 7 of 9 patting the EMH's chest and saying, "we are as one, we are as one!"
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 03:53 PM   #126
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

CorporalCaptain wrote:
If it were simply a result of her falling under the influence of a controlling abuser, the medical droids should be able to measure that.
How?
__________________
"Your advertising's just dandy. Folks'd never guess you ain't got a thing to sell."
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 04:05 PM   #127
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Set Harth wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote:
If it were simply a result of her falling under the influence of a controlling abuser, the medical droids should be able to measure that.
How?
When the medical droid said:

MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.
I was supposing that that was an assessment based on the medical state of the art in the Republic, and that we could take the droid's medical opinion on face value, as the literal truth. I presumed that that was one of the "good droids" available in the Republic, good enough for Organa's starship or better (or they would have used one from the starship instead).

It's not really believable for me to assume that there's not a lot of spousal abuse in the Republic that needs to be treated by medical doctors, since it's a big galaxy.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 06:48 PM   #128
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

My impression was that the droids were designed by the Polis Massan species that was mining the asteroids where the medical facility was located but that they were extremely reliable and sophisticated. Perhaps they could measure aspects of one's body that other droids couldn't, or they were just good at extrapolating and making educated guesses about a humanoid patient based on their other observations and procedures.

They certainly seemed to be more sophisticated than the 2-1B and FX-series medical droids used by the Rebellion a generation later, but that could just be the more advanced CGI designs of the "newer" droids being misleading. Anyways, perhaps they could measure things about Padmé that other droids and living, breathing physicians couldn't due to their exotic alien design.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:10 PM   #129
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

CorporalCaptain wrote:
I was supposing that that was an assessment based on the medical state of the art in the Republic, and that we could take the droid's medical opinion on face value, as the literal truth. I presumed that that was one of the "good droids" available in the Republic, good enough for Organa's starship or better (or they would have used one from the starship instead).
What I meant was, how could a droid measure that she had fallen under the influence of a controlling abuser? Isn't that more of a psychological thing?
__________________
"Your advertising's just dandy. Folks'd never guess you ain't got a thing to sell."
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:15 PM   #130
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

^
That's what I tried to cover in my own (admittedly very conjectural) explanation above. Who knows what Polis Massan med droids can detect seeing as the species that designed them is pretty exotic.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:37 PM   #131
Hound of UIster
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

That doesn't seem likely. I believe there has been some arguments that their unfamiliarity with human biology was why they couldn't save her.
Hound of UIster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:40 PM   #132
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Thanks for the poor on-screen explanations, George.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:51 PM   #133
AgentCoop
Fleet Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

According to the Wiki, the Kallidahin (the proper name for the Polis Massans) were renowned for their expertise in medicine and xenobiology, so if the "they were unfamiliar with humanoids" thing is some kind of semi-official explanation then someone at Lucasfilm needs to get their stories straight. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kallidahin
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 09:37 PM   #134
Hound of UIster
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
Thanks for the poor on-screen explanations, George.
The official canonical explanation is probably that she died of a broken heart and lost the will to live.
Hound of UIster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 10:00 PM   #135
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

It likely is. From an audience heart-grabber and tearjerker moment perspective I guess can see why George went that route, but it just makes little sense seeing as she's pregnant and is expecting to be a mother. Is she so in love with her husband and disappointed in Anakin's new, ruthless behavior that her anger and disbelief in his actions overrode her own strong maternal instincts?

Just a few minutes earlier she spoke of "the baby" and wanting Anakin to run away with her so they could raise it together. Now she loses the will to even live, forget the kid? It's a tad wonky, but - oh well.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.