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Old January 21 2014, 12:21 AM   #76
Ancient Mariner
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

When you're in love, you tend to forgive and overlook many faults in your beloved. That doesn't exonerate Padme - she most certainly enables Anakin, especially immediately following the slaughter of the Sand People. But that's life, sometimes. People still do stay with spouses who have committed crimes, even murder - others have even fallen in love with future spouses, knowing full-well what they did.

But I think it's more that, perhaps, Padme sees the same thing Luke saw: That there's good in Anakin, the little slave boy who was so willing to give everything he had on Tatooine. Perhaps she, too, is trying to help him find redemption for his mistakes.

But when she learns about not only his actions, but his intentions, in RotS, she decides that he is beyond saving. That final confrontation, by the way, also makes sense - wanting to see and hear for herself what Obi-Wan has told her.
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Old January 21 2014, 12:35 AM   #77
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
... when she learns about not only his actions, but his intentions, in RotS, she decides that he is beyond saving. That final confrontation, by the way, also makes sense - wanting to see and hear for herself what Obi-Wan has told her.
You make some very excellent points - thank you, by the way, for answering the question.

And yes, I did - and do - understand her confronting Annie about Obi-Wan's ratting him out. It's just that the conversation they had - especially and mostly on Annie's end - was, frankly ... absurd. Even now, Lucas is relentless with this idiotic movie dialogue. We get this feeling around-thing Lucas is doing, trying to make Annie's dialogue echo anything Vader might've said in the other movies. It comes off as arbitrary, because Annie's been very vocal and consistant about Padme's safety and security being his sole motivation for doing anything. Now, we get this garbage, last minute ... tacked on and poorly delivered. I liked what you said about people - surprisingly often - not really giving a shit about what someone they're hot for has done in the past - even if it's the recent past. As "real" as this may be, or is, it just doesn't play, in that scene ...
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Old January 21 2014, 12:47 AM   #78
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

I certainly agree that Lucas and dialogue are, generally, not a good match. And Lucas could have (and should have) found a better way of conveying the emotions and conflicts Anakin and Padme express. But I disagree that the conversation itself is "absurd" or even "idiotic" or "tacked on" (you have a case for "poorly delivered" though). For most of that scene, Padme is trying to keep herself from believing what Obi-Wan said ... and even when Anakin essentially confesses, she's still trying to keep herself from believing what she is hearing. Denial is one of the stages of grieving, after all - and make no mistake, she's grieving the loss of her husband, her love, and the father of her unborn child. It's a necessary and important moment for the characters and the story.

As for Anakin's dialogue, I take it that he's essentially "high" on the Dark Side power he's feeling - and basically batshit insane. So his words are, unsurprisingly, raving.

Anakin choking Padme, and her subsequently giving up the will to live, however, I have a more difficult time reconciling.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:06 AM   #79
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Exactly! ALL that choking Padme was about, let's face it, was to set up the premise that Vader believes he killed her - and thusly their baby - and this, in fact, is the reason why he never revisits his roots on Tatooine, searching out the same. There's NO logic behind the choke thing, other than that. Unless, and I reluctantly make this concession, that Lucas just didn't want to show anybody smacking a woman around in a STAR WARS movie. But that's ... not it. That's not why it's there.

The whole denial thing with Padme is what I have the problem with. She's snapped Annie back to reality a couple of times before, in ATTACK of the CLONES, but now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script. In the beginning, yeah ... I buy the denial. But she's had a lot of time to mull this on the flight over.

She's talking to him now, directly. She's supposed to be so strong and there's none of that, here. She's not fighting for her marriage, for her husband's sanity, for the future of her kid. She's reduced to simply being a mechanism for emotional manipulation of the audience, instead of Lucas actually working the scene out. As important as this scene is - and as you pointed out, so much hinges on it - Lucas seems strangely uninterested ... and directorially unavailable.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:09 AM   #80
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

He just lost all control when he saw Obi-Wan on the ramp of Padmé's ship and lashed out at her because in his paranoid rage he thought she had conspired with his former Master to take him into custody. Behind the scenes the Force Choke was likely to give Vader the excuse to spend the next 20 years believing he had no children, but within the context of the story it's one of the darker, more effective examples of Anakin's descent into hell. The woman he's loved so much since he was a nine-year-old slave has just been psychokinetically choked into unconsciousness, something he wouldn't have remotely contemplated before he swore allegiance to Sidious/Palpatine and became a Sith.

While trying to save her, he destroyed her. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Saga.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:14 AM   #81
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Yeah ... that was Lucas' intention, here. But ... it certainly wasn't the result.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:15 AM   #82
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

I recently rewatched the DS9 episode "Children of Time". The episode where a future Odo essentially wipes out the settlement of 8,000 people by rigging the Defiant's computers to escape the barrier. Present Odo told Kira he (future Odo) did it for her and out of love.

Here is a quote from Memory Alpha regard what Rene Auberjonis and Ronald D. Moore thought.

Auberjonois: "He allows an entire civilization to just disappear in a blink. He could rationalize it because of his love, but it's a big thing. It's tricky. I'm still not sure about it, or what kind of message it sent to the audience."

Moore: "It tells the audience how deeply this man can love. He can love to the point that he will sacrifice an entire world for a woman."


Compare what future Odo did to what Anakin did in Episode III. There is an ugly parallel there. While Anakin personally murdered Jedi knights, younglings and the Separatists leaders. Future Odo kills/erases from existence 8,000 people (many if not all) he has lived with and their families for 200 years. They both murdered for the women they loved. Future Odo is wiped from existence also since he never has to live with his decision. While Anakin had to live the next 24 years in daily agony for his crimes.



Also Deadpool is not a fan of the Prequels
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Old January 21 2014, 01:19 AM   #83
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
The whole denial thing with Padme is what I have the problem with. She's snapped Annie back to reality a couple of times before, in ATTACK of the CLONES, but now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script. In the beginning, yeah ... I buy the denial. But she's had a lot of time to mull this on the flight over. She's talking to him now, directly. She's supposed to be so strong and there's none of that, here. She's not fighting for her marriage, for her husband's sanity, for the future of her kid. She's reduced to simply being a mechanism for emotional manipulation
I don't know where you're coming from with things like "now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script". She never ruled the Galaxy. She was a Queen, and a Senator, but both were elected positions and she's expressed her interest in public service, rather than having any thirst for power. It looks like you're assigning traits to her personality that just weren't ever there.

And as for any personality "shift" in that dialogue scene ... it's all entirely plausible (convincingly written and performed are another matter). But it's not gratuitous or done for the expediency of the plot. Padme's not "simply ... a mechanism for emotional manipulation." There's much more to the scene than that. Who is to say that her reaction cannot possibly happen? People react to betrayal in many different ways - including exactly how Padme reacted: Confronting Anakin, trying to simply run away (with him) and hide from the atrocities, and finally resigning herself to the realization that he's become a monster and that he was beyond her reach.

You want to criticize the dialogue and acting, that's legitimate ... but the intent of the scene, the overall meaning behind what Anakin and Padme both say and do, ... simply isn't as you are characterizing it.

ETA:
cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
He just lost all control when he saw Obi-Wan on the ramp of Padmé's ship and lashed out at her because in his paranoid rage he thought she had conspired with his former Master to take him into custody. Behind the scenes the Force Choke was likely to give Vader the excuse to spend the next 20 years believing he had no children, but within the context of the story it's one of the darker, more effective examples of Anakin's descent into hell. The woman he's loved so much since he was a nine-year-old slave has just been psychokinetically choked into unconsciousness, something he wouldn't have remotely contemplated before he swore allegiance to Sidious/Palpatine and became a Sith.

While trying to save her, he destroyed her. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Saga.
Eloquently stated. Thanks.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:21 AM   #84
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

No, it's not the intent of that scene at all. It's pretty clear what Lucas intended and if one wants to quibble about the effectiveness of the dialogue spoken by Natalie and Hayden then that's fair game, but Lucas designed the landing platform scene on Mustafar to be the moment that Anakin's rage at last gets the better of him and he tries to destroy the two closest people in his entire life. The moment he truly becomes Darth Vader in all of his anger and confusion.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:25 AM   #85
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

I figured that Anakin's suffering killed Padmé from afar, by a Force power that he didn't really intend to operate that way. She was giving birth while he was being operated on. He projected his trauma or pain on top of what she was already experiencing, and her body or nervous system couldn't take it (there's some flexibility here, I'm still growing this idea).

Whatever it was, the medical droids couldn't measure it. It would have looked like a woman dying during childbirth, except for there being no medical cause in her or in the babies for what was happening. So, the droids came up with some bullshit about her simply losing the will to live.

At least, that's how I would have explained her death.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:28 AM   #86
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
He just lost all control when he saw Obi-Wan on the ramp of Padmé's ship and lashed out at her because in his paranoid rage he thought she had conspired with his former Master to take him into custody. Behind the scenes the Force Choke was likely to give Vader the excuse to spend the next 20 years believing he had no children, but within the context of the story it's one of the darker, more effective examples of Anakin's descent into hell. The woman he's loved so much since he was a nine-year-old slave has just been psychokinetically choked into unconsciousness, something he wouldn't have remotely contemplated before he swore allegiance to Sidious/Palpatine and became a Sith.

While trying to save her, he destroyed her. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Saga.
I thought the scene worked really well. It's apparent from the dialogue in Epi II and III that Anakin has a personal jealousy against Obi-Wan. On Tattoine Anakin blames Obi-Wan for his own (Anakin's) shortcomings. In episode 3 Anakin senses that Obi-wan had visited his and Padme's home and seems very irritated/possessive of Padme when he questions her about Obi's visit. When Padme tells Anakin that Obi-Wan told her about his crimes; Anakin perceives it's Obi-Wan fault for Padme turning against him, and not Anakin murdering children and wanting to be a galactic dictator. Then when Obi reveals himself he lashes out at Padme and chokes her. There is one final bit where Anakin yells at Obi-Wan for 'turning her against him' and that 'he will not take her from him'.

That's what makes the scene to great in my opinion. We the audience know why Obi is there and what he plans to do. As Obi confronts Anakin, it's apparent that they are talking past one another. Obi is there to end Anakin's life, but all Anakin can talk about is how Obi is his enemy and that he won't allow Padme to be taken away from him.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:30 AM   #87
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

That's actually a very, very good theory. Certainly a thousand times preferable to "she's dying of a broken heart in spite of some of the most advanced medical droids in the sector tending to her childbirth." She and Anakin had a psychic link of sorts through the Force and as cybernetic Vader was being painfully created on Coruscant his searing physical discomfort was transferred to his wife in a fashion, overwhelming her already-strained physical condition from the Force Choke and giving birth to twins.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:59 AM   #88
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
By this point Anakin had already fallen to the dark side and murdered dozens of Jedi (including children). Luke is warning Jabba not to take him lightly, and would later hack and slash Jabba's men to death. When Luke entered Jabba's palace he force choked two of the pig guards. Force choking is a dark move Jedi don't use. Luke was in real danger of falling to the dark side in ROTJ. Maybe if ROTJ had more scenes with Luke drifting closer to the dark side, it may have been a stronger movie.
Luke's ROTJ could not be peppered with more dark side personality traits, as he had to resolve:

1. His desire to be Jedi.

2. Learn if Vader was his father.

3. Confront the Sith.

The audience had to believe that with all Luke was set to face, he was inherently good, and thoughtful. His mature attempt to change Vader (Endor walkway) and his initially cool exchange with Palpatine further sold the idea that he was not Anakin 2.0

The shock--a necessary shock--comes when this Obi-Wan-like young Jedi finally meets his breaking point as Vader threatens to turn Leia. For the audience, THAT was the moment when they were supposed to fear he could turn. The reaction was so violent, so unlike the growing Luke we witnessed all through most of ROTJ, that the positive build-up was hanging by a thread during the attack on Vader.

In other words, he was not Anakin, who--by necessity of the Prequels story--needed to exhibit dark side traits long before his actual turn.

I take Luke's warning to Jabba to be in tone with a classic, or "old-school" Jedi: state your intent--even if threatening--with a monk-like, slightly paternalistic calm. At this point in Luke's journey, he believed he was moving toward knighthood in the mold of his aged mentors, so he would not bear any of the sadistic, arrogant traits seen in his father.
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Old January 21 2014, 02:52 AM   #89
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

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Also Deadpool is not a fan of the Prequels
That's awesome. I liked a lot of the PT elements, but I chuckled nonetheless.
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Old January 21 2014, 04:30 AM   #90
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post

The whole denial thing with Padme is what I have the problem with. She's snapped Annie back to reality a couple of times before, in ATTACK of the CLONES, but now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script. In the beginning, yeah ... I buy the denial. But she's had a lot of time to mull this on the flight over.

She's talking to him now, directly. She's supposed to be so strong and there's none of that, here. She's not fighting for her marriage, for her husband's sanity, for the future of her kid. She's reduced to simply being a mechanism for emotional manipulation of the audience,
It was the hormones.
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