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Old January 18 2014, 05:47 AM   #16
Saito S
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Saito S wrote: View Post
...
the DQ
...
the DQ
...
This DQ force
...
I have a craving for a Dilly Bar....
A mint Dilly bar if you're buying.


And Saito S, the other galaxy idea is a great one. It gets back to the idea of the Federation is tooooo far away and possibly not technologically advanced enough to have something that would make it worthwhile.
Thanks, and yeah, the Ent-D would be interesting enough in "Q Who", once Q forced the meeting, for them to take an interest, but not enough to devote large amounts of vital but limited resources to. The way the Borg were depicted in Voyager, they absolutely could have assimilated the Federation if they'd wanted to, and there would have been no way to stop them.

Re: the Milky Way and the Star Trek galaxy

See the Stellar Cartography topic on the Trek Tech section. A major problem has been randomly assigning the Star Trek galaxy as being our galaxy. That has major issues since Sol is located on a very minor part of a minor spiral fragment, not even a spiral arm. As such, the lining up of say the Vulcan sun with Eridani doesn't make sense.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=232543&page=3

This is why it's far better to make the Star Trek galaxy and the Milky Way to be two entirely different galaxies. The center of the galaxy in the Milky Way is in no way close to say the alpha and beta quadrant borders.
Hmm... I dunno. Here, I don't really agree. I'm not going to get deeply into this subject here (because it's not what this thread is about), but having skimmed that other thread, I really don't see the need to explicitly define Trek's galaxy as "not the Milky Way." It's the same as with Earth: we had no Eugenics Wars in the 90s that I am aware of. So, Trek's Earth is Earth, it's just not quite... our Earth. Things happened a little differently. Same thing re: the Milky Way.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:46 AM   #17
Robbiesan
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...83_964x959.jpg
Sol is nowhere near the center, and far from the densest part of the Milky Way. As such, the Enterprise is not going to get close to the center any time soon without expending a lot of energy and time.

http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net...laxy_2mass.jpg
But this distant position could be why the Sol comes under the notice of the Borg. Canis Major intersects with the Milky Way galaxy. That's following the rule that practically every stellar cartographer of the Star Trek universe has followed. I'm the exception as it means constantly saying, "Hmmm. Now that star doesn't have the right planets so that can't be the star even though in terms of light years and warp drive it was plausible. This is why I discard the need to use real Milky Way stars and match them with the Star Trek universe.

So using the standard method and your suggestion, Canis Major would have been an ideal candidate and a plausible one for the Borg instead of the Delta quadrant.

The isolated arms of the Canis Major galaxy are clear paths and so the Borg could follow those dense arms (seen in red in the animation). The Canis Major dwarf galaxy is closer to us than it is for us to reach the center of the Milky Way, believe it or not.

Last edited by Misfit Toy; January 18 2014 at 04:21 PM. Reason: no hotlinked images
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Old January 18 2014, 08:14 AM   #18
Xerxes1979
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
We also don't know when the Borg destroyed the El-Aurians' homeworld. Guinan said in "Q Who" that the event had scattered her people, and I assumed her visit to Earth ("Time's Arrow") may have been due to that scattering.
Actually Guinan says it was two centuries prior, meaning it was after her time on Earth.
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Old January 18 2014, 09:08 AM   #19
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
Canis Major would have been an ideal candidate and a plausible one for the Borg instead of the Delta quadrant.
Fact check. The Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy wasn't postulated to exist until the end of 2003, over two years after the last episode of Voyager aired. It wasn't an ideal candidate for anything while Voyager was being written.
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Old January 18 2014, 09:24 AM   #20
Robbiesan
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Robbiesan wrote: View Post
Canis Major would have been an ideal candidate and a plausible one for the Borg instead of the Delta quadrant.
Fact check. The Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy wasn't postulated to exist until the end of 2003, over two years after the last episode of Voyager aired. It wasn't an ideal candidate for anything while Voyager was being written.
You've just demonstrated why I dislike the 'Well we need to match the stars up in Star Trek with our stars" theory.

You're right. Andromeda is a long long long long way off though. Maybe the Magellanic Clouds?
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Old January 18 2014, 09:44 AM   #21
Lance
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
Actually a probe is a standard military tactic to determine the strength of an opposing force. The probe's intention is to determine reaction time, technological ability, weapons type, discipline, detection, etc.
It's also something that insects do. The 'hive' might send in a single Ant to probe around in a kitchen, and then a while later all his buddies start to come along too. And as we know, the Borg's behaviour was (originally) based on the behaviour of insects, specifically those hive mind species like Ants or Bees.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
We also don't know when the Borg destroyed the El-Aurians' homeworld. Guinan said in "Q Who" that the event had scattered her people, and I assumed her visit to Earth ("Time's Arrow") may have been due to that scattering.

The refugees in "Generations" may not have suffered their trauma recently, it could be a long-negotiated removal. Or the first place they went to was unsuitable and Starfleet was helping out with another new location.
I would think the destruction of the El-Aurian homeworld and the events of Generations likely happened in fairly close proximity to one another...

Star Trek: Generations wrote:
CRUSHER: He's an El-Aurian, ...over three hundred years old. He lost his entire family when the Borg destroyed his world. Soran escaped with a handful of other refugees aboard a ship called the Lakul. That ship was later destroyed by some kind of energy ribbon, but Soran and forty-six others were rescued by the Enterprise-B.
Agreed, BillJ. There's very little ambiguity there, the Lakul was apparently escaping from the Borg cataclysm. It's sort of a continuity error, but it was probably an intentional one, for dramatic purposes.
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Old January 18 2014, 09:49 AM   #22
Robbiesan
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Lance wrote: View Post
It's also something that insects do. The 'hive' might send in a single Ant to probe around in a kitchen, and then a while later all his buddies start to come along too. And as we know, the Borg's behaviour was (originally) based on the behaviour of insects, specifically those hive mind species like Ants or Bees.
That's possible. The initial Borg surveillance team i.e. Rangers are leaving a formic acid trail. Maybe they do a honey location dance too.

It was probably in the deleted scenes. Maybe it will show up in the Grand Anniversary DVD edition.
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Old January 18 2014, 04:24 PM   #23
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...83_964x959.jpg
Sol is nowhere near the center, and far from the densest part of the Milky Way. As such, the Enterprise is not going to get close to the center any time soon without expending a lot of energy and time.

http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net...laxy_2mass.jpg
But this distant position could be why the Sol comes under the notice of the Borg. Canis Major intersects with the Milky Way galaxy. That's following the rule that practically every stellar cartographer of the Star Trek universe has followed. I'm the exception as it means constantly saying, "Hmmm. Now that star doesn't have the right planets so that can't be the star even though in terms of light years and warp drive it was plausible. This is why I discard the need to use real Milky Way stars and match them with the Star Trek universe.

So using the standard method and your suggestion, Canis Major would have been an ideal candidate and a plausible one for the Borg instead of the Delta quadrant.

The isolated arms of the Canis Major galaxy are clear paths and so the Borg could follow those dense arms (seen in red in the animation). The Canis Major dwarf galaxy is closer to us than it is for us to reach the center of the Milky Way, believe it or not.
Robbiesan - the use of hotlinked images is prohibited on this board. You may use images hosted on your own site, or from your own space on an image hosting site such as Photobucket, etc.

Please don't do this again.
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Old January 20 2014, 12:02 AM   #24
USS Excelsior
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Guinan said she encountered the Borg a century ago when their world was destroyed, and in Generations they were refugees of that assimilation.
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Old January 20 2014, 11:00 AM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
I look at the Borg as a slow onslaught, a behemoth. Yes, they could conquer the whole Alpha Quadrant, but it's actually not in their best interest. It seems like they intentionally wait until there is sufficient technological advantage in a species and if they're a threat as a result, then and only then do they conquer a species.
Concise summary! Both the Federation and the Romulans had suffered (unseen) casualties by Borg by the time of "The Neutral Zone".

The Borg had been there, but found nothing of interest of these technologically "inferior" species and left.

That apparently changed with "Q Who" when Q moved the Enterprise-D much further than it could have possibly went on her own - and thus attracted the Borg to the enigmatic and technologically superior "Q Drive".

Guinan: "My people encountered them a century ago. They destroyed our cities, they scattered my people throughout the galaxy. They're called the Borg. Protect yourself, Captain, or they'll destroy you."

Guinan arrived near Earth following this scattering during ST VII.
So why didn't she give the Federation an advance warning?

My 0.02 $ are
  • she had already tried to do this with her own people (after what she had learned from Picard during their time together in the cavern in "Time's Arrow" - this is a conjectural pet theory of mine), but nobody would listen so based on her experience neither would the Federation
  • she was afraid that some curious human scientists would try to find and investigate this unknown race (which would bring Earth and the Alpha Quadrant to unnecessary and premature Borg attention)
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Old January 21 2014, 04:01 AM   #26
desfem79
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

It's possible that Q Who was the first true contact the UFP had.

Cochrane may have got scoffed for saying some humans, a human/Betazoid hybrid, an android and a Klingon saved his warp flight (lol..) but then I'd bet his contemporaries would have said it was the drink talking and not him. As for Archer, well the Borg didn't say who they were, and he and Starfleet probably thought "who the f**king hell were they?!" I'd doubt in Kirk's time it was public knowledge, though Section 31 of that era plus classified and most likely forgotten details in Starfleet may have existed.

As for why the UFP in Picard's day didn't do anything, they most likely underestimated the threat, or couldn't determine when the Borg would come.
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Old January 21 2014, 01:28 PM   #27
BillJ
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  • she was afraid that some curious human scientists would try to find and investigate this unknown race (which would bring Earth and the Alpha Quadrant to unnecessary and premature Borg attention)
Which did happen. We see the Hansens' in "Dark Frontier" (Star Trek: Voyager) chasing the Borg years before the Enterprise encounter in "Q, Who?"
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Old January 24 2014, 01:35 PM   #28
Luminus
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Re: Why was Starfleet so slow to acknowledge the Borg threat?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
Cochrane may have got scoffed for saying some humans, a human/Betazoid hybrid, an android and a Klingon saved his warp flight (lol..) but then I'd bet his contemporaries would have said it was the drink talking and not him....
This is exactly what happened, but Cochrane ended up retracting his statement. Episode "Enterprise: Regeneration."
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