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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 17 2014, 12:09 PM   #31
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

uniderth wrote: View Post
Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.
You do know Khan was supposed to be Indian and not Hispanic, right? And that they dropped his skin-darkening makeup for Wrath of Khan and changed all his followers into Aryan youths?

I bet you never even noticed.
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Old January 18 2014, 01:38 AM   #32
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.

It makes sense to me, so that's what I'm going with.
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Old January 18 2014, 04:10 AM   #33
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.
How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.
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Old January 18 2014, 05:00 AM   #34
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.
You seem pretty confident in asserting this - CAPITAL LETTERS, no less - even though you presumably have no way to actually predict the future. There is no guarantee that future writers will do what you want them to do.
It doesn't matter what I want. I expect them to ignore the intent of previous writers because 1) it has always happened when Star Trek changes creative teams and 2) it has ALREADY happened as far as the comics are concerned. It's not much of a stretch to say it will happen again in the future.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline
The key words here are "seem to". Things are not always as they seem. We might ask: did the Enterprise writers think they were writing something that was in the same timeline as previous material ( just earlier ), or did they think they were writing content for a different timeline entirely? Does writer intent even matter?
To the extremely limited extent that writer's intent matters AT ALL, I think the intent has to actually be there and be relevant to the material that was finally produced. If, for example, the writers never thought about it one way or the other, it doesn't necessarily matter how subsequent writers interpret the implications of those events.

What I'm really drawing attention to is the fact that Section 31 is a Trek villain that was invented in the 24th century spinoffs and then retconned into the earlier years through ST-Enterprise. This neccesarily creates all kinds of weird complications as far as the TOS timeline, complications which have now become manifest in the NuTrek universe independent of Nero's influence. So even if it wasn't INTENDED to be a fully alternate timeline, it's definitely being written like one.

Not really. In ST alternate timelines of this sort coexist in the same overall continuity.
This one doesn't. It's an abrupt discontinuity from everything in the previous timeline other than ST-Enterprise, one that -- unlike all previous alternate timelines -- cannot and will not be reconciled with the original. For all intents and purposes it's an "alternate Star Trek."

Basically, it would be like Peter Parker falling into a wormhole and meeting a different version of himself, whereupon he changes his name to "The Scarlet Spider." In comic books, that would be a kind of mindfuck meta-crossover; in Star Trek, it's called "Tuesday."

They are analogous to locations.
Inasmuch as the Star Wars galaxy and the Milky Way are analogous to locations. That DOES NOT make them part of the same continuity.
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Old January 18 2014, 05:20 AM   #35
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.
How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.
If events in the past have been shaped by time travelers, than anything that happens BEFORE that time-travel event took place would also affect the past.

The thing is, those changes would have been evident in the altered timeline long before their ultimate cause (Nero and/or Spock) was actually present. Nero/Spock would still be the cause of the divergence, but the divergence would have occurred much earlier, beginning with the earliest temporal incursion with a causal connection to Nero/Spock.

Here's something to ponder: a single red matter black hole does not lead to a single exit point, as we've already seen that two different objects pulled into the same hole at slightly different times (Narada and Jellyfish) can actually emerge at two completely different points in time. That being the case, what do you suppose happened to all the debris from the Narada when it got sucked into the black hole at the end of the first film?
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Old January 18 2014, 05:32 AM   #36
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
C. E. Evans wrote:
The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.
The intention of the writers is what it is.
For you, maybe. I think what's actually said onscreen counts more.

Allowing them to define what is going on in the film they wrote is surely preferable to allowing disgruntled fans to rewrite the plot.
Nah. People have always been free to speculate on things that aren't actually specified onscreen. You can agree or disagree with how well their speculation fits onscreen material, but they do have that right.
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Old January 18 2014, 05:57 AM   #37
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
C. E. Evans wrote:
The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.
The intention of the writers is what it is.
For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.
In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:09 AM   #38
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

The intention of the writers is what it is.
For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.
In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.
I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:16 AM   #39
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.
How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.
If events in the past have been shaped by time travelers, than anything that happens BEFORE that time-travel event took place would also affect the past.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

"Anything that happens before that time-travel event took place." What are you talking about, specifically? If you mean things that happen in the 24th century - the "present" - before Nero and Spock Prime enter the black hole, then no, those things can't affect the past, because they were not involved in time travel.

If you mean things that happened in the TOS time frame, before Nero's arrival, then obviously those things will be unchanged, because there's no way Nero could have possibly affected them. When Nero and Spock arrived in the past, they affected all events after that time, but there is no logical way they could possibly affect events BEFORE that time.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
what do you suppose happened to all the debris from the Narada when it got sucked into the black hole at the end of the first film?
Oh, that. Well we have absolutely no idea what happened to the debris from the Narada. I suppose it could have ended up in the pre-2233 past, but unless we are specifically shown that, then it didn't happen. You can speculate all you like, but there's no proof of it.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:18 AM   #40
Nerys Myk
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
For you. That's the aforementioned insisting on it being just one way, especially when something isn't actually specified onscreen.
In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.
I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.
It's a bit hard to say you're from a specific timeline with in the context of the story. You can place the dots and hope the viewer will draw the lines. If they want to ignore the dots for what ever reason, that's not the writers' fault.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:22 AM   #41
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In this case, I think they did. Or as close as they could with totally breaking the fourth wall.
I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.
It's a bit hard to say you're from a specific timeline with in the context of the story. You can place the dots and hope the viewer will draw the lines. If they want to ignore the dots for what ever reason, that's not the writers' fault.
It just means that the situation is subject to more than one interpretation. Many stories have been written that people can look at in different ways.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:27 AM   #42
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I just figured that the NuTrek universe was shifted to an alternate timeline going both forwards and backwarsd in time from the point of divergence of Nero's arrival.
How is that possible? There's no logical way that Nero's arrival could have affected the past - only the present and anything derived from it.
The Enterprise-E will no longer be around for first contact. Or if it is, it'll be the NuEnterprise-E and it'll do things very differently. Just one example. Every event pre-2233 influenced by a time traveler from post-2233 will have been altered.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:30 AM   #43
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

I had already amended my post to say that I think what's said onscreen counts more--and the only thing said onscreen was that Nero changed a timeline of events. Whether that timeline was of the original universe or an already alternate universe still remains debatable. It really can go either way, depending on how you want to roll with it.
It's a bit hard to say you're from a specific timeline with in the context of the story. You can place the dots and hope the viewer will draw the lines. If they want to ignore the dots for what ever reason, that's not the writers' fault.
It just means that the situation is subject to more than one interpretation. Many stories have been written that people can look at in different ways.
I don't think this is one of them.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:35 AM   #44
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-E will no longer be around for first contact. Or if it is, it'll be the NuEnterprise-E and it'll do things very differently. Just one example. Every event pre-2233 influenced by a time traveler from post-2233 will have been altered.
Incorrect. The prime timeline still exists. It hasn't been erased.
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Old January 18 2014, 08:23 AM   #45
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

The question asked by this thread is whether, like the Mirror universe, the nuTrekverse has existed parallel to the 'Prime' timeline all along, rather than splintering from some specific incident.

Spock etc theorize that the destruction of the Kelvin was the point where the timeline changed, but truthfully... I take that just as Spock throwing out a hypothetical. There's enough evidence on-screen (IMO) to suggest that even before the arrivial of the Narada, the nuTrekverse was already very much in established, and very different to how the 'Prime' universe was at the same point in time.

The Kelvin incident obviously had ramifications for James T. Kirk personally, making a difference to *his* life and changing him as a person, but it doesn't in itself explain the sheer number of things that are different in the 'new' universe more broadly.
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