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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 17 2014, 05:15 AM   #16
Set Harth
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

-Brett- wrote:
Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.
No. Branching timelines specifically do not erase anything from continuity as the original timeline still exists in parallel to the alternate. ( See: Mirror Universe, TNG's Parallels ) Given that all prior Spock appearances in canon were part of the personal history of the Spock Prime character who appeared in ST09, it makes no sense to say that they have been "erased from continuity", not only because multiple timelines exist in the same overall continuity, but also because events in the timeline depicted in the prior canon led to the creation of the branching alternate timeline in the first place. Abrams Trek is not technically a reboot; certain fans just continue to insist that it is.

Crazy Eddie wrote:
The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences.
That's only "up for debate" if the intention of the writers is ignored.

Crazy Eddie wrote:
Not all of them.
I was specifically referring to Khan there.

Crazy Eddie wrote:
And if you want to be REALLY nitpicky, there's the fact of the Klingons' physical appearance: Kor looks NOTHING like his TOS appearance
The TMP Klingons looked nothing like the TOS Klingons, and reportedly Roddenberry had said at the time that the audience was supposed to act as if they had really looked like that all along and just go with it. So this is really an old retcon, one which predates anything ST09 did by about thirty years.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:21 AM   #17
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote:
Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.
Nothing was erased from continuity.
Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.
"Trials and Tribilations" would definitely be problematic in this case, but even that would imply the timeline into which Spock and Nero emerged runs PARALLEL to the Primeline without overriding it. If Spock could just perform some kind of quantum signature technobabble calculation, he could probably deposit himself in the actual TOS universe as we remember it from the 60s and then cryogenically freeze himself long enough to watch himself fall into the black hole. None of that will ever happen in the NEW timeline, though.

Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01. As I've said many times before, the overall continuity makes a lot more sense if you take Star Trek Enterprise to be the reboot (the New TOS) and then interpret the Abramsverse movies as being basically "Enterprise: the Next Generation."
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Old January 17 2014, 05:22 AM   #18
Dale Sams
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Word of God from Orci dating back to a Trekmovie.com Q+A has always been that the timelines diverged in 2233, that they were identical before that. ST'09 supports this with Spock's line that the timeline disruption "Beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin...". Into Darkness seems to confirm this, by bending over backwards to explain how and why Khan was revived earlier than "Space Seed" (all stemming from the Narada's arrival and the destruction of Vulcan), and with Admiral Marcus' models, which include the Aries IV, Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX-Alpha and Enterprise NX-01, all of which are part of the pre-2233 shared past. There was even a scene, cut from the final version of the movie, explaining why Carol has a British accent now. If the timelines were always separate, there would be no need for any of that at all and they'd never have bothered.
I want to interject at this point my own personal fanwank on how Marcus even knew about Khan and found him:

Prime Spock told NuSpock he swore not to tell NuSpock about future events. Now a few years ago when ST (2009) came out, I snarked how the Enterprise was going to spend its five year mission running around stopping the galactic threats that TOS dealt with.

"Botany Bay towed to Starbase 21. Check."
"Lazarus intercepted and dealt with. Check."
"Space Pancakes stopped....check."
"What's a Doomsday Machine?"

But it doesn't make any sense for Spock to pile all of that on the shoulders of one ship. There should be an entire department dealing with the future threats. And that's how the corrupt Admiral (is there any other kind?) knew about Khan.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:24 AM   #19
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote:
Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.
Nothing was erased from continuity.

BlueMetroid wrote: View Post
I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.
What gave you that impression? I found him saying this in 2012:
It’s the “butterfly flaps its wings, causes a hurricane” analogy. We started off with small deviations, but as we proceed, we’re getting further and further from the original timeline. Issues #9 and #10, “The Return of the Archons,” is an example of how the new timeline diverges significantly from the original story. The last movie was the butterfly. This series builds up to the hurricane that is the next movie… the stories will depart further and further from the original series. We will use a few original series concepts as jumping off points, but the new timeline is moving in a radically different direction.
I read it earlier today...I can't for the life of me remember where. I could've sworn it was on Trekmovie.com, but now I can't find it. At any rate, someone in the comments section poses the idea that it's an alternate universe altogether, and Mike Johnson replies with something like "that's the idea" or "what if the timeline split before Nero's arrival?". I'll see if I can find it, ya'll.

Meanwhile....great thoughts!
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Old January 17 2014, 05:27 AM   #20
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Aha!

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/trek...r-comics-news/

Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:33 AM   #21
Set Harth
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01.
And everything else is still canon, in its own timeline, just comprised of stuff that's not going to re-happen in the Abrams timeline.

BlueMetroid wrote:
Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.
That comment might not be saying what you think it's saying, though. Note that the commenter claims "the jj-verse was a different universe before Nero interrupted the timeline" but then goes on to say "it was the Narada’s interference that caused the change between the two formerly identical universes". In other words, the "different universe" that Nero went into was, until his arrival, a carbon copy of the Prime. As such it's a distinction without a difference: going into the past of a carbon copy of the Prime and creating a branching timeline/universe by going into the past of the Prime really amount to pretty much the same thing.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:38 AM   #22
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote:
The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences.
That's only "up for debate" if the intention of the writers is ignored.
Which it safely can be, and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.

What we're trying to do is reconcile what we've seen with what we would expect to see if the timelines diverged as implied. There are too many elements that don't fit nicely, and the simpler explanation is that the timelines were similar but not entirely identical and that Spock and Nero did not arrive in their own causal past; HAD they not arrived, the timelines would still have been noticeably different.

Crazy Eddie wrote:
Not all of them.
I was specifically referring to Khan alone.
I wasn't. Section 31 is extremely active in this timeline and has been for at least a century (we first see them in ST-Enterprise). It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline, in fact some of the more underhanded things we see going on in the 23rd century -- Cartwright's assassination plot, for instance -- are never openly connected with Section 31 (you'd think Spock's mind meld would have revealed the code name for the entire conspiracy if there was one, right?).

Khan got scooped up by Section 31 in this timeline because Section 31 EXISTS in this timeline. Vulcan's destruction probably wouldn't have similar consequences in the TOS progression.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:39 AM   #23
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01. As I've said many times before, the overall continuity makes a lot more sense if you take Star Trek Enterprise to be the reboot (the New TOS) and then interpret the Abramsverse movies as being basically "Enterprise: the Next Generation."
I independently came to basically the same conclusion. The nuTrek movies are what The Original Series would have looked like if it had actually been made after 'Enterprise', rather than before it.

That's how I approach the movies when I watch them, too.

Stylistically, 'Enterprise' isn't much of a prequel to TOS. It's just too different to be completely reconcilable. nuTrek is in a lot of ways a much more plausible reinterpretation of TOS, as seen from the viewpoint of using the events of 'Enterprise' as backstory.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:44 AM   #24
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01.
And everything else is still canon, in its own timeline, just comprised of stuff that's not going to re-happen in the Abrams timeline.

BlueMetroid wrote:
Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.
That comment might not be saying what you think it's saying, though. Note that the commenter claims "the jj-verse was a different universe before Nero interrupted the timeline" but then goes on to say "it was the Narada’s interference that caused the change between the two formerly identical universes". In other words, the "different universe" that Nero went into was, until his arrival, a carbon copy of the Prime. As such it's a distinction without a difference: going into the past of a carbon copy of the Prime and creating a branching timeline/universe by going into the past of the Prime really amount to pretty much the same thing.
If there's an alternate timeline, it makes sense to consider an alternate canon. Especially since it's a foregone conclusion the two universes will not merge at any point in the future.

I mean, that IS the entire implication of an "alternate universe" right? The Abrams universe has its own canon that includes only ST-Enterprise while the Prime timeline PROBABLY includes ST-Enterprise as well.

Basically: there are LITERALLY two different Star Treks.
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Old January 17 2014, 06:34 AM   #25
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.
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Old January 17 2014, 06:56 AM   #26
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

uniderth wrote: View Post
Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.
In the Star Trek Universe(s) a quick trip to sickbay can make a human into a Romulan. Turing an Indian human into a European human is probably child's play. Especially for Section 31, who might have reasons for hiding Khan's true face.
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Old January 17 2014, 07:01 AM   #27
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

We'll find out about Khan's appearance change once and for all next month when the 5th and final issue hits. In issue 4 Marcus already mentioned that "the best surgeons in Starfleet" worked on Khan after his "accident", so to me that pretty much sets the stage for that explanation. We'll see!
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Old January 17 2014, 07:02 AM   #28
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
uniderth wrote: View Post
Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created. Thus Khan becomes a white man in JJverse and a Hispanic-looking/sounding Indian man in the real universe.
In the Star Trek Universe(s) a quick trip to sickbay can make a human into a Romulan. Turing an Indian human into a European human is probably child's play. Especially for Section 31, who might have reasons for hiding Khan's true face.
Heck, people talk like race-lifting somebody would be some kind of miracle. But anyone with enough money could pay a decent surgeon to do it even today! That kind of thing isn't even beyond our current technology, let alone the more advanced technology of the 23rd century.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:31 AM   #29
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
and WILL be -- assuming it hasn't already -- when OTHER writers get involved.
You seem pretty confident in asserting this - CAPITAL LETTERS, no less - even though you presumably have no way to actually predict the future. There is no guarantee that future writers will do what you want them to do.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It doesn't seem to have been active in the Primeline
The key words here are "seem to". Things are not always as they seem. We might ask: did the Enterprise writers think they were writing something that was in the same timeline as previous material ( just earlier ), or did they think they were writing content for a different timeline entirely? Does writer intent even matter?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Khan got scooped up by Section 31 in this timeline because Section 31 EXISTS in this timeline.
There is no proof that Section 31 did not exist in the original timeline.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If there's an alternate timeline, it makes sense to consider an alternate canon.
Not really. In ST alternate timelines of this sort coexist in the same overall continuity. They are analogous to locations. The Abramsverse timeline, as a timeline which branches from the Prime in 2233, is derived from the Prime and as such its very existence results from the existence of the Prime timeline. Not to mention the fact that one of its denizens is an escapee from that timeline. It would be nonsensical to say that Spock's previous life experiences are no longer "canon" or that the events leading up to Prime timeline 2387 are not "canon" from the perspective of the Abramsverse. Those things still happened, despite the fact that one of the individuals they happened to is now living in a different universe.

uniderth wrote:
Plus Khan is a white man in JJverse. So if there ever was a connection it would have had to split before Khan was created.
No. Once again, since it was ignored the first time, Khan is the same as TOS Khan before Marcus gets involved.
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Old January 17 2014, 10:43 AM   #30
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

I think the phrases 'canon' and 'continuity' are erroneously being used in an iterchangable way in this thread.

They aren't really the same thing though. The nuTrekverse is it's own little pocket of 'continuity', but it is still undeniably a part of the same 'canon' (the overall body of work) comprising official Star Trek.
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