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Old January 19 2014, 02:31 AM   #121
Timewalker
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
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To say that it hasn't been measured reliably belies the fact that the very existence of telepathy has not been substantiated.

FTL nonsense is still nonsense.
Hmm... I could have sworn I said this:

You did, which, as I said, makes it completely incongruous to try to make the point that "we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy."

However, since you seem to think that the two statements go together, with your use of the words definitely [sic - better would be definitively] and reliable, your two statements there sound like you're suggesting that telepathy has some evidential support, but just nothing definite yet. And, it sounds like you're suggesting that support for telepathy would increase, if only it could be measured more reliably.

No. That's wrong. Telepathy doesn't have any support. It has zilch. Nada. It hasn't even been measured at all, whether reliably, unreliably, definitely, indefinitely, definitively, or inconclusively.


Again, your use of the word reliable is entirely redundant. Also, the way you've constructed your assertion in the boldfaced part frankly suggests that there is a realistic possibility that we could someday measure it, or in fact that we already have albeit unreliably, both of which are false.

As for FTL being nonsense... for now, it's called "suspension of disbelief" - something we all do every time we sit down to enjoy a Star Trek episode (or any other show that uses FTL technology). For the future... I think we need to realize that we don't know everything yet. It's not irrational to hope that some day somebody will figure out a way to make it work, or at least discover an alternate way that will achieve the same end results.
Actually, I didn't mean by that that FTL is nonsense. By "FTL nonsense is still nonsense" what I meant was that using FTL as an adjective to modify a noun that represents a form of nonsense still leaves you with nonsense. What was under discussion was "FTL telepathy", in which FTL is an adjective. Although I didn't think I needed to because of the context, I probably could have worded that less ambiguously, say as: "An FTL faerie is still a faerie."

My point was that "FTL telepathy" is still a form of telepathy. "FTL telepathy" isn't somehow more legitimate than telepathy generally. The only reason it isn't less so is because nonsensical nonsense is still just nonsense.

As F.M. Busby said in The Long View (one of my favorite novels from a series that does use relativity as a fundamental part of the plot) when a character does discover FTL: "Einstein wasn't wrong... He just didn't have all the facts."

I'm fairly sure we don't have all the facts, either.
True, we don't have all the facts.

Whether FTL or telepathy might theoretically be discovered someday is an entirely separate question from whether they have any evidential support. They have none. There are some theoretical reasons to suggest that FTL could, hypothetically, be possible, but nothing concrete has yet been demonstrated. Absolutely nothing.

It's also worth pointing out that, given the body of evidence that we have, the discovery of FTL or telepathy are events that realistically have a low probability of occurring.

The fact that we don't have all the facts can't be twisted to support the reality of such fantastic concepts. At best, that ignorance in not having all the facts, which is an essential element of the human condition, only prevents all hope that they could be real from being closed off.


Basically: We don't know if telepathy really exists. Since we don't know if it exists, there's no reason why we should have developed a way to measure how fast it works.

We don't have all the facts about how the universe itself works. Maybe we will discover how to make FTL technology happen. I hope we will. But for now, such a technology remains a part of science fiction, and as long as it's applied consistently within whatever setting uses it, I'm content to suspend my disbelief.
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Old January 19 2014, 02:51 AM   #122
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote: View Post


Basically: We don't know if telepathy really exists. Since we don't know if it exists, there's no reason why we should have developed a way to measure how fast it works.

We don't have all the facts about how the universe itself works. Maybe we will discover how to make FTL technology happen. I hope we will. But for now, such a technology remains a part of science fiction, and as long as it's applied consistently within whatever setting uses it, I'm content to suspend my disbelief.
Well, that's not really what I said, since I said that one is probably not wrong to assert that telepathy isn't real, as quoted below.

But if that's your take-away from what I said, so be it.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
It's also worth pointing out that, given the body of evidence that we have, the discovery of FTL or telepathy are events that realistically have a low probability of occurring.
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Old January 21 2014, 03:26 AM   #123
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I could be convinced FTL exists a lot more easily than I could be convinced telepathy exists.
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Old January 25 2014, 06:00 PM   #124
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
I see both here, but then if people are accustomed to Roddernberry/Berman Trek, then it makes sense they may not like Abrams Trek.

It's self-evident Paramount reckon Robbernberry/Berman Trek needed revamping, and it makes sense. TNG had high ratings, but then the average Joe is not a Trekkie. So Abrams Trek caters for the widest possible audience. may seem hollow to some, but Paramount, WB, Mirimax, Universal and the other big studios make films for profit primarily, so more sales means more potential profits.
Couldn't agree more. I prefer the Rodeddenberry/Berman Trek. I grew up watching TNG, DS9, VOY & then on to Enterprise. I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

If this is what it takes to keep Star Trek alive then so be it, but for me it's sad if this is the future of Trek.
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Old January 25 2014, 06:05 PM   #125
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Viper78 wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
I see both here, but then if people are accustomed to Roddernberry/Berman Trek, then it makes sense they may not like Abrams Trek.

It's self-evident Paramount reckon Robbernberry/Berman Trek needed revamping, and it makes sense. TNG had high ratings, but then the average Joe is not a Trekkie. So Abrams Trek caters for the widest possible audience. may seem hollow to some, but Paramount, WB, Mirimax, Universal and the other big studios make films for profit primarily, so more sales means more potential profits.
Couldn't agree more. I prefer the Rodeddenberry/Berman Trek. I grew up watching TNG, DS9, VOY & then on to Enterprise. I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

If this is what it takes to keep Star Trek alive then so be it, but for me it's sad if this is the future of the Trek.
So, 'Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World' is the best Trek film?
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Old January 25 2014, 07:00 PM   #126
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Viper78 wrote: View Post
I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.
There are actually a number of different ways to appeal to a wider audience. The NuTrek films are really pretty cynical about mining nostalgia (for the property and for old-timey pulp SF) often at the direct expense of storytelling and believability. There were SF films made in both 2009 (Avatar) and 2013 (Gravity) that did not go this route and yet out-grossed the NuTrek films. Ergo the notion that some people have developed that this was necessarily the only way to update Trek is questionable.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:11 PM   #127
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Insurrection was basically Avatar with middle-class white people.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:19 PM   #128
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

^ Not quite, because Insurrection was not 'Dances With Wolves,' and we all know that Avatar was basically 'Dances With Wolves.'

But really, the reason Avatar worked was that it embraced its identity as science fiction. With the handwaving about "unobtainium" aside (your typical SF story usually allows itself one or two piece of handwaving) everything about the planet's biology and visual design and even the Na'Vi is built to fit together logically and non-magically -- right down to flying wildlife whose design takes advantage of a denser atmosphere and lower gravity -- as well as to be relatable to some contemporary reality of the audience (hence the analogy between Pandora's biological network and a computer network). That's what made the setting so convincing and immersive that some audience members experienced depression on having to confront its intangibility.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:24 PM   #129
Viper78
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BigJake wrote: View Post
Viper78 wrote: View Post
I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.
There are actually a number of different ways to appeal to a wider audience. The NuTrek films are really pretty cynical about mining nostalgia (for the property and for old-timey pulp SF) often at the direct expense of storytelling and believability. There were SF films made in both 2009 (Avatar) and 2013 (Gravity) that did not go this route and yet out-grossed the NuTrek films. Ergo the notion that some people have developed that this was necessarily the only way to update Trek is questionable.
I personally think a new series should be the way forward for Star Trek. Enterprise ended 9 years ago & the NuTrek films in my opinion aren't any good.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:29 PM   #130
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Viper78 wrote: View Post
I personally think a new series should be the way forward for Star Trek. Enterprise ended 9 years ago & the NuTrek films in my opinion aren't any good.
Hard to speculate on what's likely in any practical sense in the Trek franchise. It depends on what the next new film does. My own preference would be for an animated series, but the basic state of play right now appears to be that CBS isn't interested in returning it to television.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:34 PM   #131
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
So, 'Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World' is the best Trek film?
Don't be silly. Forbidden Planet is the best Trek film.
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Old January 25 2014, 07:36 PM   #132
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

A Trek film based on 'The Far Side of the World' would -- or could -- actually be pretty great.
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Old January 25 2014, 09:30 PM   #133
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

To answer the OP.

I don't "hate" (such a strong word!), but I have no particular desire to watch VOY or ENT again because I find both the characters and stories a little dull. So I stay out of the forums.

I don't "hate" Abrams Trek, but I have no particular desire to see those again as they are just "popcorn flicks". So again, I stay out of those forums.

I don't understand anyone that would want to flame in the Voyager or Enterprise forums, those shows are long dead and nothing can be changed. But - I do understand why people get angry in the JJ forums. They do so because they believe they can change things by doing so. Personally I have plenty of other things going on in my life and I always have hours of TOS TNG and DS9 to watch again should I wish. But I can at least understand WHY people do it in that particular forum.
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Old January 25 2014, 10:57 PM   #134
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I could be convinced FTL exists a lot more easily than I could be convinced telepathy exists.
"Faster than light" is about as realistic as "slower than stopped."
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Old January 26 2014, 05:33 AM   #135
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Well, even if you love something dearly like we all agree we love Star Trek...that doesn't mean you don't want to pick it apart a bit once in a while. I don't have anywhere to go to if I maybe want to dissect an episode or a film a little bit further than normal discussion with people in my life would allow. Besides, if we didn't nitpick or criticize anything, what would we talk about 99% of the time? I think it's a given that anyone posting a lot on these boards already is a Trek fan, so rehashing that fact won't really provide any kind of stimulating discussion, I think.
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