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Old January 18 2014, 12:53 PM   #106
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

^^ Although I consider myself a nitpicky technophile Trekker and often have issues with scientific nonsense, I'm nevertheless aware that the storytelling comes first. Simply put, I'm willing to sacrifice scientific accuracy if it helps to tell a darn good story.

"The Enemy Within" split Kirk into Jeckyl and Hyde but what the episode was truly about was the "What if" scenario, i.e. whether it would be a good or counterproductive thing to remove the unethical traits of a person, how much each and every single one of us depends on these despicable traits.

From a philosophical point of view and IMHO, this was one of Star Trek's finest and best episodes.

Then you take "Second Chances" where Riker had been duplicated by the transporter, one left marooned on a planet, the other pursuing his Starfleet career. Another great Star Trek story, IMHO, one of TNG's finest.

(Both are impressive storylines to exploit a device originally only created to get people ASAP from Location A to Location B)

So it simply comes down whether bending or violating scientific accuracy helps you to tell a good story - or not. YMMV.

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Old January 18 2014, 02:03 PM   #107
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
"The Enemy Within" split Kirk into Jeckyl and Hyde but what the episode was truly about was the "What if" scenario, i.e. whether it would be a good or counterproductive thing to remove the unethical traits of a person, how much each and every single one of us depends on these despicable traits.

From a philosophical point of view and IMHO, this was one of Star Trek's finest and best episodes.
You mean in asking questions, or in coming up with answers? The episode is really good at asking questions, but not so much at the other thing.

We saw explicitly why allowing someone's evil half to run amok was a bad idea, as if there was ever going to be any doubt of that. However, "The Enemy Within" is extremely shallow with respect to the other question of why allowing someone's good half to run free of the evil side is itself a bad idea. The episode gives no answer to the general ethical question there, which is certainly the more interesting of the two. For some reason, the good side gets weak, but then again so does the evil side. The two sides need each other, but the episode never answers why, beyond the obvious that you need two halves to make a whole. That's anything but a deep analysis of the situation, and it really seems to serve only the end of getting everything ready for next week's episode.

That said, I found its answer to the question of why the evil side would ultimately want to rejoin with the good side to be somewhat insightful, if not generally in the abstract, then at least specifically under the premises of the story, that reason being out of pure selfishness to live.

All in all, Evil Kirk is the more interesting and well-thought-out character, between him and Good Kirk. Big surprise that the episode showcases what it's named after, eh? But how exactly is that highbrow philosophy?

Intellectually deep? Not really. Entertaining? Yes, certainly.

And anyway, Maurice's point was that Star Trek has always thrown the science part of science fiction under the bus whenever it felt like it. Even if "The Enemy Within" earns a pass, because Jekyll/Hyde is sufficiently literary, it still doesn't contradict the overall point, does it?
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Old January 18 2014, 04:39 PM   #108
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote: View Post
It's an interesting question, why are Trekkies so full of hate of (fill in the blank) Star Trek film or show? And I ask this question knowing full well I'm guilty of this ever since JJ-Trek came on the scene, but why are we all so full of hate?

Seriously, you look at any of the boards just on this forum, and it's amazing how many of them are focused on what the various fans hate about Star Trek more than what they love about Star Trek. I see threads and posts about how much some people hates Enterprise or Star Trek V or even a behind the scenes talent like Rick Berman. Just about every show and film and person connected to Trek are dogged on, with maybe a stronger focus on 1990's Trek and onward.

Why is that? I don't know about other fans, but for myself, pre-JJ Abrams, while I'll admit that some films and episodes were better than others, I really just loved it all and accepted each new adventures as the further expansion of the Star Trek Universe. I appreciated the work that Gene Roddenberry, Rick Berman and all the other members of the cast and crew put into each new episode or film, and today, still feel that all of these people really did put their hearts and souls into the work. I never felt that any of the people felt it was work making Star Trek (save possibly some of the various actors), but rather it was an enjoyable part of their lives getting to make something they clearly loved with people that became like family to them. To me it is really not surprising that many of these same people still keep in touch with each other today all these years after their run of Star Trek ended. They loved their jobs, and it showed in each and every Star Trek production.

I appreciated all of that and the general tone found in the franchise as a whole. To me, while each film and show had it's own tone that made that particular production unique, there was still an over all tone found in the whole franchise.

Then came JJ Trek and for the first time, I actually found something with the "Star Trek" name on it that I hated. I think (without writing a book or going into crazy detail), the main reason I hate JJ-Trek is due to the fact that literally nothing I loved about Star Trek pre-Abrams is found in these new films, or if it is, it's a poor man's version. I think the reason why I've become very vocal against it online really comes down to the fact that I want it to go away and never come back and the crazy hope that if enough fans feel the same way and are also vocal about it, the powers that be at Paramount might listen. I'm not dumb, I fully realize that the Star Trek I loved may never come back, but I also realize that if there is any kind of chance for that to happen somehow anyway, JJ-Trek has to go. I don't actually care that some actually like, or even love JJ-Trek, good for them. All I care about is that MY Star Trek comes back.

So, is that maybe why Star Trek fans are so full hate for so much of the Star Trek franchise? Each one of us has found a part of it that we really love and want that version to keep going and get grumpy when it doesn't? I honestly have no idea how I'll feel in so many years after JJ-Trek is ended, but I feel it's kind of silly how many "fans" on here still complain about how Captain Kirk died almost 20 years ago! Or how William Shatner directed a Star Trek film that is 25 years old. And guys, Gene Roddenberry is dead and Rick Berman is retired. If you really hated (fill in the blank) Star Trek production, good news, it all ended a really long time ago! At this point, why dwell on what you hated about the past and neglect what you loved? Or is there enough that you loved about Star Trek to actually mention it?

After the first JJ-Trek film, I tried in vain to created first a group on Facebook, then a page for Star Trek fans that like me, felt Star Trek ended in 2005. The only rule was that we were not going to sit around and bash on Abrams. Rather, I wanted it to be about what we all loved about 1966-2005 Star Trek. It amazed me how quickly and easily it not only turned into "how much I hate JJ-Trek" but also "how much I hate (fill in the blank) Star Trek from (fill in the year) pre-Abrams. I finally closed both the group and the page as it was getting to depressing. It was like pulling teeth to get anyone to talk about what they loved about Star Trek!

So my question to the fans on this board is, why? Why are we so vocal about what we hate, but not love about Star Trek?
Two things: First - people on the internet love to complain.

Second - Many longterm Trek fans who grew up with series x or series y tend to view that series as "their" Trek. It's theirs, and they take personal ownership of it. And from that point onward, through the other series and movies, they cast a keen eye on ways that these other Treks stray from what it was about "their" Trek that they loved so much. Take, for example, the "old-timers" or TOS fans. For them, Trek stopped either at the end of the third season of TOS, or if they're feeling generous, the animated series (because it contained many of the same creative team and actors as TOS).

And every Trek series has fans like this, and boy, are they ever vocal.

At the root of it, it's the difference between a fan's expectations of what a Trek series or movie would look like, and what the studios have produced. The greater those vary, the more complaining you hear. It's not a hate of Trek. It's a love of the "idea" of Trek that the fan has built in his/her mind.

I hope that helps.
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Old January 18 2014, 04:47 PM   #109
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I grew up with TOS, started watching in 1975 and I've enjoyed all the different takes to one degree or another.
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Old January 18 2014, 05:09 PM   #110
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BigJake wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Also, I wish that said fans would just stick to the old shows and movies (as well as the fan movies/shows) instead of seeing the new movies and constantly bitching about them.
No. People will continue watching new content and will continue to form their own opinions about it. Suck it up.
I'm not sucking up shit, for you or anybody else. I'm tired of you people constantly blasting Abrams & Co. for making the best Star Trek movies ever, for revitalizing the franchise and getting new generations of people to like it (check out these devianArt groups to see what I mean. ) You just want Star Trek to be stuck in a mythological 'cerebral' past that never really existed as far as TOS was concerned and was mostly a confused reading of TOS based on TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Except that it never had this except in small doses, and was mostly all action adventure with an extra dollop of philosophy and sociology.

As has been said numerous times, you don't have to see this at all; you can stick to the older shows and movies (as well as the fan shows like Phase II.) But you won't, because you'll always be looking for ways to say that the movie could be 'better' according to you. Except that your 'better' involves bringing in things that won't work with this version of Star Trek and mostly only works on TV.

At least the movies have made money, have a ton of fans beyond just the core Trekfans, and is critically acclaimed; that means the show will go on, even if Abrams won't be directing. Would that the people who hate it might want to give up bitching about it online and offline, and just accept that this is now what the franchise is, like it or not.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
In terms of accepting new versions of old favorites, I confess that I've never been able to bring myself to watch the Nicholas Cage remake of The Wicker Man, because the original with Christopher Lee is one of my favorite movies, but that's partly because I've never heard anything good about it. I like to think that I would be open-minded enough to give the remake the benefit of the doubt--if it hadn't been universally panned by the entire world.
I loved the remake just for doing the story in a different way and as it would be told in a different culture. Obviously, there's no lords and ladies in the USA,


The thing about any 'remake' of The Wicker Man is, is that it's the filmed adaptation of a novel to begin with (Ritual ) and so the second movie, despite using the title of the first, probably isn't really a remake at all.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; January 18 2014 at 05:45 PM.
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Old January 18 2014, 07:38 PM   #111
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Maurice wrote: View Post
^^^Yep. FTL telepathy.
I was unaware of any RL experiments that have resulted in peer-reviewed journal articles detailing the RL speed limit of telepathy.

Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
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Old January 18 2014, 08:16 PM   #112
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote:
Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
QFT.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
They're no worse than the Genesis Device or the all-out fantasy of Vulcan mind magic. Or what about the Excelsior splutting to a halt in space?
No, there's a qualitative difference between playing fast and loose with the science to serve storytelling or expediency (which Trek has done, it's where transporters came from) and being aggressively silly as a deliberate attempt at reference (which is what "red matter," "cold fusion" that freezes things, supernovas as galactic threats and Marvel-style healing-factor blood are). NuTrek is built around the latter and not the former.

This, incidentally, is a phenomenon that plays into the "bashing" of classic Trek that milo noticed earlier: the need to defend absolutely every element of NuTrek as being precisely the same as what went before regardless of whether this is true or not, because admitting otherwise means facing up to flaws or variances in the new product. If something in AbramsTrek doesn't make sense, well of course it doesn't, Trek never ever tried to make sense! If some part of the story is less than compelling, well of course Trek's storytelling has always been shit! "Nothing has changed!" That discussion we had about false equivalences needing to go the other day -- that applies to this kind of shenanigans too.
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Old January 18 2014, 08:18 PM   #113
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
^^^Yep. FTL telepathy.
I was unaware of any RL experiments that have resulted in peer-reviewed journal articles detailing the RL speed limit of telepathy.

Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
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Old January 18 2014, 08:23 PM   #114
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
The classic Trek setting establishes that things propagate faster than light in subspace, I'm pretty sure? (It's still uncertain whether it's really possible to make anything meaningful propagate faster-than-light IRL. Except of course, as we all know, for bad news.)
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Old January 18 2014, 08:31 PM   #115
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
^^^Yep. FTL telepathy.
I was unaware of any RL experiments that have resulted in peer-reviewed journal articles detailing the RL speed limit of telepathy.

Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
Since it hasn't been proven to work, it might just as well rely on something like quantum tunneling. Warp speed is a much harder thing to swallow, yet NASA is working on it...
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Old January 18 2014, 09:00 PM   #116
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Star Trek is still a cult show to many people. The most dedicated people often no longer care about being entertained, they care about the minutiae and become possessive of aspects of the show. Worse, they often lack the ability to adapt and change after time. Not being able to adapt to the world and change is one of the biggest reasons for hate in the world in general. It's what makes racial hatred, racial hatred, and rednecks, redneck as the population grows and people who were once provincial are forced to accept others. Luckily not everyone fits under this description and exposure often mitigates the worst of it after time and leads to acceptance.

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Old January 18 2014, 10:28 PM   #117
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
^^^Yep. FTL telepathy.
I was unaware of any RL experiments that have resulted in peer-reviewed journal articles detailing the RL speed limit of telepathy.

Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
Light traveling some distance can be measured. So far, we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy.
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Old January 18 2014, 11:41 PM   #118
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I was unaware of any RL experiments that have resulted in peer-reviewed journal articles detailing the RL speed limit of telepathy.

Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
Light traveling some distance can be measured. So far, we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy.
To say that it hasn't been measured reliably belies the fact that the very existence of telepathy has not been substantiated.

FTL nonsense is still nonsense.
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Old January 19 2014, 12:07 AM   #119
Timewalker
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Since the speed limit of the universe is the speed of light, why would telepathic communication be exempt?
Light traveling some distance can be measured. So far, we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy.
To say that it hasn't been measured reliably belies the fact that the very existence of telepathy has not been substantiated.

FTL nonsense is still nonsense.
Hmm... I could have sworn I said this:

Timewalker wrote:
Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
So yeah, I'm quite aware that the existence of telepathy has not been proven. And since we don't know for sure whether or not it exists, we haven't developed a reliable way to measure it.

As for FTL being nonsense... for now, it's called "suspension of disbelief" - something we all do every time we sit down to enjoy a Star Trek episode (or any other show that uses FTL technology). For the future... I think we need to realize that we don't know everything yet. It's not irrational to hope that some day somebody will figure out a way to make it work, or at least discover an alternate way that will achieve the same end results.

As F.M. Busby said in The Long View (one of my favorite novels from a series that does use relativity as a fundamental part of the plot) when a character does discover FTL: "Einstein wasn't wrong... He just didn't have all the facts."

I'm fairly sure we don't have all the facts, either.
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Old January 19 2014, 01:17 AM   #120
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Light traveling some distance can be measured. So far, we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy.
To say that it hasn't been measured reliably belies the fact that the very existence of telepathy has not been substantiated.

FTL nonsense is still nonsense.
Hmm... I could have sworn I said this:

Timewalker wrote:
Since telepathy is one of those SF staples that hasn't been definitely proven in RL, it can work at any damn speed the author wants it to work.
You did, which, as I said, makes it completely incongruous to try to make the point that "we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy."

However, since you seem to think that the two statements go together, with your use of the words definitely [sic - better would be definitively] and reliable, your two statements there sound like you're suggesting that telepathy has some evidential support, but just nothing definite yet. And, it sounds like you're suggesting that support for telepathy would increase, if only it could be measured more reliably.

No. That's wrong. Telepathy doesn't have any support. It has zilch. Nada. It hasn't even been measured at all, whether reliably, unreliably, definitely, indefinitely, definitively, or inconclusively.

So yeah, I'm quite aware that the existence of telepathy has not been proven. And since we don't know for sure whether or not it exists, we haven't developed a reliable way to measure it.
Again, your use of the word reliable is entirely redundant. Also, the way you've constructed your assertion in the boldfaced part frankly suggests that there is a realistic possibility that we could someday measure it, or in fact that we already have albeit unreliably, both of which are false.

As for FTL being nonsense... for now, it's called "suspension of disbelief" - something we all do every time we sit down to enjoy a Star Trek episode (or any other show that uses FTL technology). For the future... I think we need to realize that we don't know everything yet. It's not irrational to hope that some day somebody will figure out a way to make it work, or at least discover an alternate way that will achieve the same end results.
Actually, I didn't mean by that that FTL is nonsense. By "FTL nonsense is still nonsense" what I meant was that using FTL as an adjective to modify a noun that represents a form of nonsense still leaves you with nonsense. What was under discussion was "FTL telepathy", in which FTL is an adjective. Although I didn't think I needed to because of the context, I probably could have worded that less ambiguously, say as: "An FTL faerie is still a faerie."

My point was that "FTL telepathy" is still a form of telepathy. "FTL telepathy" isn't somehow more legitimate than telepathy generally. The only reason it isn't less so is because nonsensical nonsense is still just nonsense.

As F.M. Busby said in The Long View (one of my favorite novels from a series that does use relativity as a fundamental part of the plot) when a character does discover FTL: "Einstein wasn't wrong... He just didn't have all the facts."

I'm fairly sure we don't have all the facts, either.
True, we don't have all the facts.

Whether FTL or telepathy might theoretically be discovered someday is an entirely separate question from whether they have any evidential support. They have none. There are some theoretical reasons to suggest that FTL could, hypothetically, be possible, but nothing concrete has yet been demonstrated. Absolutely nothing.

It's also worth pointing out that, given the body of evidence that we have, the discovery of FTL or telepathy are events that realistically have a low probability of occurring.

The fact that we don't have all the facts can't be twisted to support the reality of such fantastic concepts. At best, that ignorance in not having all the facts, which is an essential element of the human condition, only prevents all hope that they could be real from being closed off.
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