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Old January 18 2014, 01:25 AM   #76
BigJake
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

If I have some time later today or tomorrow, I could certainly assemble a list of the "Most Disappointing" links I mentioned (and post it on the appropriate forum). Except... I don't know that the ensuing conversation would necessarily be worth it. I'd have to think about that.
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Old January 18 2014, 01:49 AM   #77
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Saito S wrote: View Post
milojthatch wrote: View Post
I agree, but part of my point is that fans are not just slamming new stuff, but large sections of "the good old days." Why?
Why not? Why is it ok to slam new things but not old things? I agree with J on the topic of "hate, vs. HATE", as well. A lot of what goes on here is the former. Even when people might use the word "hate", in a casual sense ("I just hated that scene where (something something). Ruined the whole episode for me!"), I think a lot of that is still just how people talk. Perhaps they are very into the conversation, but that's what this place is for; it's a Trek message board, and it's for discussing ALL Trek, not just the new stuff. Granted, sometimes it DOES cross the line into outright, actual hatred, and goes way too far. But that's the minority, and its existence shouldn't preclude us from having discussions or disagreements about aspects of Trek we don't like.

With all that in mind, why shouldn't people discuss things they didn't like about pre-Abrams Trek? People have differing opinions. A bit upthread, King Daniel mentioned that he liked Nemesis, and thought most of TNG itself was terrible. These are not exactly common viewpoints within this fandom, or on this board. I'm no stranger to being in the minority when it comes to which parts of Trek I do and don't like, myself: I respect TOS for laying the foundation of Trek, but as a TV show, I find the majority of it hilariously cheesy and overwrought (and no, I don't mean the 60s effects or sets, I mean the writing and production values) to the point of near unwatchability. Obviously, this too is a fairly uncommon viewpoint here. Am I not allowed to talk about that, simply because I'd be "slamming old Trek"? If not, why not?

Your welcome. I have a theory that most of the so-called JJ-Trek fans are not the majority of the Trek fan base. At best they are half of the fan base, and then even most of that are fair-weather fans who might have "loved" the 2009 film but turned on the 2013 film.

I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?" I also think most of the so-call JJ-Trek fans are more vocal online (where it's safer) then out in public, and past seeing the films and buying the DVD/Blu-ray, don't seem to show their love the same way fans of the pre-Abrams era have and still do. But I could be wrong... (Probably not.)
And right here, you prove yourself to be a huge part of your own described problem. This is just politely worded bashing. You are calling into question the motives and sincerity of everyone who likes Abrams-Trek, whether they are/were also fans of "oldTrek" or not. As Greg Cox pointed out, many people simply like the films because they... simply like the films.

The Abrams movies are only bad Trek (or bad movies, or both, however you feel about them) in your opinion. You personally don't like the direction they took. Fine. That doesn't give you the right to assume that what you want out of Trek is what everyone wants out of Trek. And to then start throwing out theories about how everyone who says they like the new films is actually just jumping on the bandwagon, or they are not "true fans", or other such nonsense, is just as bad as any "bashing" that you've been railing against.
THIS.

Also, I wish that said fans would just stick to the old shows and movies (as well as the fan movies/shows) instead of seeing the new movies and constantly bitching about them. lest everybody forget, this is an action-adventure space opera with a veneer of sci-fi, not the totality of serious sci-fi (although it has a supporter who's a literary sci-fi writer.)
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Old January 18 2014, 01:51 AM   #78
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Also, I wish that said fans would just stick to the old shows and movies (as well as the fan movies/shows) instead of seeing the new movies and constantly bitching about them.
No. People will continue watching new content and will continue to form their own opinions about it. Suck it up.
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Old January 18 2014, 01:55 AM   #79
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I love when people have differing opinions. I hate when those differing opinions are presented as the "truth". Some people hate the Abrams films, some people love them. Some people hate Voyager, some love it. Every version has it lovers and haters.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:28 AM   #80
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
It's not just Trekkies who are like this. I've seen it a lot with Whovians and other fan groups.
Most Whovians have very definite opinions on which Doctor is their favorite, and which Companion. From my observations on this forum, there's more acrimony over the actual number of regenerations the Doctor has undergone, do the Doctors need to be "renumbered," and how old is he, than some of the sorts of things other fans talk about (ie. actors' personal lives).

Some of those discussions include the frustration of Classic Who fans (Doctors 1-8) vs Modern Who/nuWho fans (Doctors 8.5, aka the War Doctor - Doctor whatever-the-number-is, played by Peter Capaldi).

The Whovian discussions get rather emphatic at times, but I've yet to see any Who-related discussion get so vicious and meanly personal as some of the Star Trek ones have.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Nothing's changed, milojthatch. Every incarnation of Trek has sprouted passionate detractors going all the way back to The Motion Picture - the only difference is which side of the fence you find yourself on now.

You might find this thread of interest, where some negative Wrath of Khan reviews from Interstat in '82/'83 had few names swapped around by Opus (Harve Bennett becomes J.J. Abrams, for example) and read almost exactly like the negative Into Darkness comments you find here on the BBS and elsewhere (Bennett doesn't like or understand Trek, it's a shallow Star Wars shoot-em-up, killing Spock was hack writing, the characterizations are terrible etc). I'm afraid this has all happened before and it will happen again - but now thanks to the internet, it's much easier to complain. No more writing letters, posting them and getting it published by the editor of a letterzine - just tap away on your keyboard or phone and it's there for all to see in less than a second.

EDIT: HERE is one of the fanlore.org pages with the Interstat letters.
I was an Interstat subscriber for awhile, and it was fascinating to follow some of the arguments.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
OP you're part of the problem. You complain about 'haters', then admit you are one. You complain about STV haters calling them "silly" but say similar negative things about JJ-Trek.

The problem is people like you. And me. If you think its a problem, then stop complaining about JJ Trek.
If I understand correctly, the OP wanted to explore the idea of hating some aspect or other of fandom. It's hard to do that without giving examples.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Why is it pointless to say I thought nuBSG was ridiculous?

You might as well say it's "pointless" to give an opinion on anything you don't like - some TV show or movie, a book, or your least favorite green vegetable.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:36 AM   #81
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

By the standards of big budget movies, both NuTreks are excellent movies.

But I'm going to judge anything with the name 'Trek' on it by Star Trek standards.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:44 AM   #82
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
By the standards of big budget movies, both NuTreks are excellent movies.

But I'm going to judge anything with the name 'Trek' on it by Star Trek standards.
I think both Abramsverse films are good movies by Star Trek standards.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:57 AM   #83
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BillJ wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
By the standards of big budget movies, both NuTreks are excellent movies.

But I'm going to judge anything with the name 'Trek' on it by Star Trek standards.
I think both Abramsverse films are good movies by Star Trek standards.
Agreed. I got started on TOS, and the Abrams movies feel like they have that same magic.
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Old January 18 2014, 03:10 AM   #84
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Why is it pointless to say I thought nuBSG was ridiculous?

You might as well say it's "pointless" to give an opinion on anything you don't like - some TV show or movie, a book, or your least favorite green vegetable.
Okay, that was a bit snarky, I admit. But it did get kinda tiresome and repetitive after a few years--especially for those of us who had no nostalgic connection to the original show.

"Yes, yes, we get it. You liked the old show better and this new one is a disgrace. Now can we just get back to talking about this week's episode . . . ."
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Old January 18 2014, 03:14 AM   #85
Saito S
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BigJake wrote: View Post
but the substantive difference between NuTrek and other changes in incarnation is very real. With due respect to the standard "we've seen this all before" line, I would not compare it to other fandom rows, since the property has undergone a genuine and deliberate transition to a different sub-genre.
I disagree with this, actually. Reason being:
It's just that the novelty of seeing Trek get the truly big-budget Big Dumb Action Movie treatment is gradually wearing off (as it was always going to do).
For my money, this is nothing new, and didn't start with Abrams. With the exception of TMP and TVH, all of the Trek films have been action-adventure pieces set in space, with the ultimate goal being to defeat a singular, identifiable "villain" who is at the center of it all. Some are good, some are not so good, some are just plain stupid, and none can match the best of the various TV series for depth, for a more serious, cerebral science fiction story, for a sense that there's more to it than JUST an entertaining sci-fi adventure romp (excepting TMP, which had that very notion as its core concept, but failed in execution). The Abrams movies are no different. You've got STXI, which is fun to watch but has a plotline that's dumber than a brick (I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of my list of Trek movies, but it would easily best the likes of TFF or NEM), and STID, which was a solid action-adventure piece with just a bit of a social/political "message" going on (and I would put it near the top of my list). The only major shift that has occurred when it comes to films I-X vs. the two Abrams films are that the budgets are bigger and the sensibilities more modern.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Also, I wish that said fans would just stick to the old shows and movies (as well as the fan movies/shows) instead of seeing the new movies and constantly bitching about them.
No. People will continue watching new content and will continue to form their own opinions about it. Suck it up.
If you are saying that people are entitled to watch any new content that they wish, form an opinion, and post here (or in other appropriate places) about said opinion, even if it's an extremely negative opinion, then I agree completely.

But, if what Shaka was referring to were the "haters", i.e. people that keep bringing up how Abrams Trek films have destroyed the very idea of intelligent Star Trek every time said movies are discussed at all, or people who compare Abrams to the devil, or - my favorite - the people who slagged on STXI and/or STID before the movie in question was even out, then... well, they still have a right to post here, sure. But it is really damn tiresome.
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Why is it pointless to say I thought nuBSG was ridiculous?

You might as well say it's "pointless" to give an opinion on anything you don't like - some TV show or movie, a book, or your least favorite green vegetable.
Making the same differentiation that I just made in reply to BigJake: I very much doubt Greg meant to say, or even imply, that it's pointless for you to engage in a discussion about nuBSG while holding the opinion that it was terrible (and to voice that opinion in the discussion). The word "rage" in his post was, I would imagine, quite intentional, and he was talking about the same people I was above, who fly off the handle into over-the-top histrionics if anyone so much as mentions that the new incarnation of BSG (or Trek or... whatever, this could apply to a huge number of other franchises in various mediums that have been refreshed/rebooted over the years) might be better in their eyes vs. the old incarnation. Or people who insist on entering thread after thread despite having nothing to say other than "I hate this", inserting themselves into a conversation about the newer incarnation just to remind everyone that they hate it.

Of course, I don't mean to speak for Greg Cox here, he's perfectly free to correct me if I'm way off in my interpretation of the quoted post.
BillJ wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
By the standards of big budget movies, both NuTreks are excellent movies.

But I'm going to judge anything with the name 'Trek' on it by Star Trek standards.
I think both Abramsverse films are good movies by Star Trek standards.
As I said above, I think STXI is "okay" by Trek movie standards; middle of the road. Whereas STID is among the best.

As for Trek movies vs. "big budget movies", I don't tend to make that kind of distinction, really. Because on the one hand, there are certainly plenty of big-budget movies that couldn't hold a candle to even the worst of the worst of Trek films (i.e., Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen), and on the other, there are some big-budget, high-profile movies that are leagues ahead of any Trek film (i.e., Inception).
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Old January 18 2014, 03:38 AM   #86
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Saito S wrote: View Post
For my money, this is nothing new, and didn't start with Abrams. With the exception of TMP and TVH, all of the Trek films have been action-adventure pieces set in space, with the ultimate goal being to defeat a singular, identifiable "villain" who is at the center of it all.
They obviously spent the entire run of the TNG movie franchise trying to figure out ways to make Big Dumb Action movies on the relative cheap with that cast. But NuTrek represents a commitment to that ideal on a whole new level, and a full and deliberate segue into Star Wars-style fantasy in a whole new way. (The movies go well out of their way to signpost this in more than just the dollars spent on visual effects: it's why, for example, they don't just de-emphasize the 'science' part of the science fiction, but are deliberately in-your-face silly about it. It isn't subtle.)
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Old January 18 2014, 03:41 AM   #87
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
I hate Star Trek because it's terrible.

All of it.
Your avatar of Matthew Lesko is disturbing. When he originally published his rather staid book on acquiring government grants, I would bet that mostly it was aimed at poor academics trying desperately to find money for their PhDs.

Then he evolved in a rather bizarre huckster.

Surely you jest about Star Trek...right?
Come on, you should know. Of course I jest.

It's a TrekBBS survival mechanism; the minute I get serious about Star Trek, I become an asshole.
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Old January 18 2014, 03:48 AM   #88
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

It's ironic, but even with the problems I have with the Nu Trek movies, I like them far more than the last two TNG movies.

I can never get through a single viewing of either Insurrection or Nemesis. NuTrek is great by comparison.

However with the Nu trek, (or any movie) the problem it's just hard to ignore things that don't seem right.

Like Kirk going from cadet straight to captain of his own ship along with his fellow cadets.

It's just going to seem stupid to some people/fans.

Or Spock, who as a Vulcan, is supposed to be logical, and nearly emotionless, most of the time. Yet he's always losing it--in the first two movies.

That infamous, "Kaahhnnn"!!!


On a side note, Steven Spielberg is predicting that the big budget, mega movie trend is going to crash because of the crazy spending on movies with little substance.
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Old January 18 2014, 03:51 AM   #89
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
On a side note, Steven Spielberg is predicting that the big budget, mega movie trend is going to crash because of the crazy spending on movies with little substance.
I expect he is correct.
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Old January 18 2014, 04:03 AM   #90
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Saito S wrote: View Post
Making the same differentiation that I just made in reply to BigJake: I very much doubt Greg meant to say, or even imply, that it's pointless for you to engage in a discussion about nuBSG while holding the opinion that it was terrible (and to voice that opinion in the discussion). The word "rage" in his post was, I would imagine, quite intentional, and he was talking about the same people I was above, who fly off the handle into over-the-top histrionics if anyone so much as mentions that the new incarnation of BSG (or Trek or... whatever, this could apply to a huge number of other franchises in various mediums that have been refreshed/rebooted over the years) might be better in their eyes vs. the old incarnation. Or people who insist on entering thread after thread despite having nothing to say other than "I hate this", inserting themselves into a conversation about the newer incarnation just to remind everyone that they hate it.

Of course, I don't mean to speak for Greg Cox here, he's perfectly free to correct me if I'm way off in my interpretation of the quoted post.
Believe it or not, I have been in the reverse situation of loving the new interpretation of a character/setting while most of the other people who saw it slagged it unmercifully and insisted it was crap.

I'm referring to the Crow franchise. I've read the original graphic novel, I've seen the first 3 movies, and the TV series. The first movie was superb, and I'm so glad they were able to finish it despite Brandon Lee's tragic fatal accident on the set. The second movie was okay - not as good as the first, but I like it because it is a legitimate sequel to the first. The other movies are best forgotten, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would disagree with that assessment.

The difference is the TV series. I absolutely love The Crow: Stairway to Heaven. Was Mark Dacascos a Brandon Lee clone? No, of course not. But did he do a credible interpretation of both Eric Draven and his Crow alter-ego? Definitely. Was the supporting cast good? Most of them were wonderful, even the characters who only appeared once or twice. Sometimes whole unspoken conversations could be conveyed with a single change in facial expression or tone of voice, and that inspired me to write copious numbers of pages of fanfic, to "fill in the gaps" and imagine all kinds of detailed backstories for these characters. Was it unfair that the show got dumped because of a series of business decisions and the new owners of the production company decided to scrap the show even though it had been renewed for a second season? Hell, yes.

And yet I've met fewer than a half-dozen people who feel as I do. Most prefer to keep complaining that the TV series wasn't dark enough, it wasn't violent enough, it wasn't about revenge anymore. They keep missing the layers and nuances, and the "morality play" aspects that manage not to be so preachy and "clobber the audience with it because the audience is just too stupid to figure it out for themselves." And they don't like the idea that the TV Eric Draven can be noble and courageous, but at the same time he can be just as much a fallible, selfish jerk as the next person, given provocation or a particularly frustrating set of circumstances.

So yeah, I've been on the side of defending instead of criticizing. It doesn't mean I'm going to bow to popular opinion and change my mind, though.
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