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Old January 17 2014, 06:58 PM   #61
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I'm a fan of Nemesis and think the TNG TV series is mostly awful. I certainly don't like ST'09 because it's the "cool" thing to do - I like it because I love these versions of the characters and sense of epic adventure.
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Old January 17 2014, 07:00 PM   #62
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

To be clear, this is not just a Trekkie thing. If anything, the generational wars can get even more intense in comic-book fandom.

You want to start a fight? Ask who the "real" Batgirl is, or Green Lantern, or the Flash . . .

And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
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Old January 17 2014, 07:55 PM   #63
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote: View Post
I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?"
I find the premise that Abrams made Star Trek cool and that it's now "okay" to be a Star Trek fan to be questionable at best. Maybe the stigma against the property itself isn't as bad as it once was, but "cool" is far too strong of a term. The stigma against being a "Trekkie" remains as strong as ever.
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Old January 17 2014, 08:45 PM   #64
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
milojthatch wrote: View Post
I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?"
I find the premise that Abrams made Star Trek cool and that it's now "okay" to be a Star Trek fan to be questionable at best. Maybe the stigma against the property itself isn't as bad as it once was, but "cool" is far too strong of a term. The stigma against being a "Trekkie" remains as strong as ever.
But how pervasive is that "stigma" in real life? I mean, I suppose it could be an issue if you're a teen in high school and worried about dating and peer pressure and fitting in, but I can't say I've ever been on the receiving end of any anti-Trekkie prejudice in the real, grown-up world. None of my neighbors, relatives, or non-Trekkie friends have ever given me a hard time about it.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:00 PM   #65
Nerys Myk
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
To be clear, this is not just a Trekkie thing. If anything, the generational wars can get even more intense in comic-book fandom.

You want to start a fight? Ask who the "real" Batgirl is, or Green Lantern, or the Flash . . .

And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Gordon, Jordan and Allen.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:08 PM   #66
Greg Cox
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
To be clear, this is not just a Trekkie thing. If anything, the generational wars can get even more intense in comic-book fandom.

You want to start a fight? Ask who the "real" Batgirl is, or Green Lantern, or the Flash . . .

And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Gordon, Jordan and Allen.
I'm inclined to agree, but, trust me, those are fighting words in some circles!
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Old January 17 2014, 09:16 PM   #67
Nerys Myk
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
To be clear, this is not just a Trekkie thing. If anything, the generational wars can get even more intense in comic-book fandom.

You want to start a fight? Ask who the "real" Batgirl is, or Green Lantern, or the Flash . . .

And there are still old-school Battlestar Galactica fans who rage (pointlessly) against the more recent version.
Gordon, Jordan and Allen.
I'm inclined to agree, but, trust me, those are fighting words in some circles!
I should have gone old old school with Kane, Scott and Garrick.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:23 PM   #68
Greg Cox
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Gordon, Jordan and Allen.
I'm inclined to agree, but, trust me, those are fighting words in some circles!
I should have gone old old school with Kane, Scott and Garrick.
I remember at least one fan who threatened to boycott the Green Lantern movie unless they included Scott. Really!

We all have our icons . . .
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Old January 17 2014, 09:55 PM   #69
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote: View Post
I agree, but part of my point is that fans are not just slamming new stuff, but large sections of "the good old days." Why?
Why not? Why is it ok to slam new things but not old things? I agree with J on the topic of "hate, vs. HATE", as well. A lot of what goes on here is the former. Even when people might use the word "hate", in a casual sense ("I just hated that scene where (something something). Ruined the whole episode for me!"), I think a lot of that is still just how people talk. Perhaps they are very into the conversation, but that's what this place is for; it's a Trek message board, and it's for discussing ALL Trek, not just the new stuff. Granted, sometimes it DOES cross the line into outright, actual hatred, and goes way too far. But that's the minority, and its existence shouldn't preclude us from having discussions or disagreements about aspects of Trek we don't like.

With all that in mind, why shouldn't people discuss things they didn't like about pre-Abrams Trek? People have differing opinions. A bit upthread, King Daniel mentioned that he liked Nemesis, and thought most of TNG itself was terrible. These are not exactly common viewpoints within this fandom, or on this board. I'm no stranger to being in the minority when it comes to which parts of Trek I do and don't like, myself: I respect TOS for laying the foundation of Trek, but as a TV show, I find the majority of it hilariously cheesy and overwrought (and no, I don't mean the 60s effects or sets, I mean the writing and production values) to the point of near unwatchability. Obviously, this too is a fairly uncommon viewpoint here. Am I not allowed to talk about that, simply because I'd be "slamming old Trek"? If not, why not?

Your welcome. I have a theory that most of the so-called JJ-Trek fans are not the majority of the Trek fan base. At best they are half of the fan base, and then even most of that are fair-weather fans who might have "loved" the 2009 film but turned on the 2013 film.

I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?" I also think most of the so-call JJ-Trek fans are more vocal online (where it's safer) then out in public, and past seeing the films and buying the DVD/Blu-ray, don't seem to show their love the same way fans of the pre-Abrams era have and still do. But I could be wrong... (Probably not.)
And right here, you prove yourself to be a huge part of your own described problem. This is just politely worded bashing. You are calling into question the motives and sincerity of everyone who likes Abrams-Trek, whether they are/were also fans of "oldTrek" or not. As Greg Cox pointed out, many people simply like the films because they... simply like the films.

The Abrams movies are only bad Trek (or bad movies, or both, however you feel about them) in your opinion. You personally don't like the direction they took. Fine. That doesn't give you the right to assume that what you want out of Trek is what everyone wants out of Trek. And to then start throwing out theories about how everyone who says they like the new films is actually just jumping on the bandwagon, or they are not "true fans", or other such nonsense, is just as bad as any "bashing" that you've been railing against.
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Old January 17 2014, 10:24 PM   #70
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I love Star Trek. Though I believe that certain elements of it haven't aged very well. I think it's okay to be critical of those elements to a certain degree but believe bashing the creators/actors should be out of bounds outside the context of the shows they worked on.
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Old January 18 2014, 12:09 AM   #71
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
milojthatch wrote: View Post
I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?"
I find the premise that Abrams made Star Trek cool and that it's now "okay" to be a Star Trek fan to be questionable at best. Maybe the stigma against the property itself isn't as bad as it once was, but "cool" is far too strong of a term. The stigma against being a "Trekkie" remains as strong as ever.
But how pervasive is that "stigma" in real life? I mean, I suppose it could be an issue if you're a teen in high school and worried about dating and peer pressure and fitting in, but I can't say I've ever been on the receiving end of any anti-Trekkie prejudice in the real, grown-up world. None of my neighbors, relatives, or non-Trekkie friends have ever given me a hard time about it.
I always assume people who say fans of NuTrek are relieved they are mainstream now must be quite young themselves. This is just not something that features in day to day life outside of high school.
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Old January 18 2014, 12:24 AM   #72
Greg Cox
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

teacake wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post

I find the premise that Abrams made Star Trek cool and that it's now "okay" to be a Star Trek fan to be questionable at best. Maybe the stigma against the property itself isn't as bad as it once was, but "cool" is far too strong of a term. The stigma against being a "Trekkie" remains as strong as ever.
But how pervasive is that "stigma" in real life? I mean, I suppose it could be an issue if you're a teen in high school and worried about dating and peer pressure and fitting in, but I can't say I've ever been on the receiving end of any anti-Trekkie prejudice in the real, grown-up world. None of my neighbors, relatives, or non-Trekkie friends have ever given me a hard time about it.
I always assume people who say fans of NuTrek are relieved they are mainstream now must be quite young themselves. This is just not something that features in day to day life outside of high school.
Exactly

Which is not to dismiss the concerns of the poor youngsters still stuck in high school. It's easy for us adults to pooh-pooh any "stigma" because our adolescent days are behind us, but not every Trek fan is that lucky!

Throwing my memory back through time, I don't remember Star Trek being an issue in high school, but that could be because I was barely aware of being there. I pretty much went through grade school with my nose in a book, oblivious to social concerns. It wasn't until I discovered fandom in college that I actually joined the human race.

In short, being a Trekkie hardly hurt my social life. It gave me one!
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Old January 18 2014, 12:29 AM   #73
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Heh, yes if someone had looked down on me in high school because of Star Trek I would probably have been shocked they had noticed me enough to speak to me
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Old January 18 2014, 12:55 AM   #74
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote:
Is this how TOS fans felt when TNG came out? Or TNG fans when Voyager came out?
I doubt it. Each incarnation and project has had its detractors, and I certainly never cared much for VOY and ENT -- I'm not even overfond frankly of most of the movies post-TWOK, the TOS movie franchise was already looking tired when TSFS came out -- but the substantive difference between NuTrek and other changes in incarnation is very real. With due respect to the standard "we've seen this all before" line, I would not compare it to other fandom rows, since the property has undergone a genuine and deliberate transition to a different sub-genre.

I have a theory that most of the so-called JJ-Trek fans are not the majority of the Trek fan base. At best they are half of the fan base, and then even most of that are fair-weather fans who might have "loved" the 2009 film but turned on the 2013 film.
The perception that "Trekkies" have turned on STiD is a media oversimplification, but I certainly do see a shift in perception and increasing numbers of people starting to question the nature of the project, and not just among the hardcore fandom. (I noticed STiD turn up with surprising consistency on "Most Disappointing Movie" lists at the end of 2013, for instance.) It's ironic to see this happen in response to STiD, because it's actually much the better of Abrams' films IMO in a lot of ways -- it certainly isn't guilty of any sins that ST09 didn't commit in spades, aside from the infamous "borrowing" of elements from TWOK -- and I don't think it's about "fair-weather fans" either. It's just that the novelty of seeing Trek get the truly big-budget Big Dumb Action Movie treatment is gradually wearing off (as it was always going to do).

I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?"
I definitely don't think it's cricket to imply that Abramstrek fans' enthusiasm is less than genuine... and most certainly any doubts I ever had that Abrams would attract his own over-the-top fans have been laid to rest. The only real difference I can see is that NuTrek in and of itself will not likely be inspiring new generations of scientists anytime soon; it simply has nothing at all of that content or aspiration. But it may prove and probably already has proved for some a gateway drug to the older series, so there's that.
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Old January 18 2014, 01:18 AM   #75
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

BigJake wrote: View Post
The perception that "Trekkies" have turned on STiD is a media oversimplification, but I certainly do see a shift in perception and increasing numbers of people starting to question the nature of the project, and not just among the hardcore fandom. (I noticed STiD turn up with surprising consistency on "Most Disappointing Movie" lists at the end of 2013, for instance.)
I keep seeing certain people promoting this point-of-view yet I've not seen any great shift in perception outside of people trying to sell magazines and drive website hits.
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