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Old August 3 2014, 10:16 PM   #1696
Timelord Victorious
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Stone_Cold_Sisko wrote: View Post
I agree with that sentiment. Obi-Wan died in ANH. Then appeared as a force ghost in ESB/ROTJ. Yoda died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end. Vader/Anakin died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end.

It just seemed like something Jedi could do, like lifting objects with the force. I really don't think it needed any kind of special "training" explanation.
Lifting stuff with the force needs to be trained. It doesn't come that naturally from what we've seen.
Though some are more talented at it than others.
a potent Jedi like Anakin might in fact be able to do it without training... Obi Wan may have needed to train for it.
though how one trains dying is a bit beyond me. Maybe it is a form of astral projection and the hard part is to make that state permanent.
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Old August 3 2014, 11:06 PM   #1697
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.
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Old August 3 2014, 11:14 PM   #1698
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Skywalker wrote: View Post
I'm really glad they took the time to cover that in TCW. When Yoda brought it up to Obi-Wan in ROTS it kind of came out of the blue. It's unfortunate that Neeson wasn't available to record that dialogue for the movie, or whatever happened, but the show really made up for it.
Same here. A friend of mine used to point to Yoda's revelation to Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith as one of those WTF? moments that George poorly explained and just threw at the audience from out of left field, and while I understood the reference to a Jedi learning how to retain their consciousness and become a spirit after physical death (thanks, lifetime of being a geek!) other people didn't, and I kind of wish Liam Neeson had been able to participate in the completion of Episode III and record some dialogue to finish the sequence on the Polis Massan asteroid.

I'm glad The Clone Wars picked up that ball and did something with it. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed Season 6 so much - tying up loose ends is a virtue.
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Old August 3 2014, 11:22 PM   #1699
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Stone_Cold_Sisko wrote: View Post
I agree with that sentiment. Obi-Wan died in ANH. Then appeared as a force ghost in ESB/ROTJ. Yoda died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end. Vader/Anakin died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end.

It just seemed like something Jedi could do, like lifting objects with the force. I really don't think it needed any kind of special "training" explanation.
Yoda and Obi-Wan spent some 20 years on their own doing little more than meditating, so they were ready to pass over. And Anakin came from the Force so he simply went back to it.
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Old August 3 2014, 11:23 PM   #1700
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

davejames wrote: View Post
(much like Midichlorians to explain the Force itself).
Midichlorians don't explain the Force itself, they explain variable Force sensitivity. The Force was explained in ANH & TESB.

Skywalker wrote:
I'm really glad they took the time to cover that in TCW. When Yoda brought it up to Obi-Wan in ROTS it kind of came out of the blue. It's unfortunate that Neeson wasn't available to record that dialogue for the movie, or whatever happened, but the show really made up for it.
The essential information was conveyed in the ROTS scene. You don't really need what was covered in the deleted scene to move the plot along, and it didn't include the cosmic Force stuff from TCW. Sure, it name-dropped the Whills, which would have been nice to get into movie-canon. But it wasn't required to get the main point across.

DWF wrote:
And Anakin came from the Force so he simply went back to it.
Supposedly his 'ghosting' was due to the intercession of Obi-Wan and Yoda.
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Old August 3 2014, 11:32 PM   #1701
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

^
Obi-Wan, actually.

Ryder Windham's (quite terrific) novelization of the events during the final moments of Anakin Skywalker's life depicts him crossing over to the Star Wars version of the Other Side and finding little more than a void at first, but then Obi-Wan's Force spirit begins communicating with Anakin to set him at ease and let him know that his heroic sacrifices during the final minutes of his life not only fulfilled the prophecy of the Chosen One but were a redeeming act for his soul after all the pain and tragedy he'd caused over the decades as Darth Vader. Obi-Wan tells Anakin that his consciousness can indeed survive physical death and he'll show him how to do so before it fades into nonexistence.

The next we know Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan are materializing before Luke on Endor during the victory celebration.
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Old August 4 2014, 12:15 AM   #1702
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

My own personal fanon/whatever idea is that since the Force binds everything together that a Force user who has passed to "the other side" can still establish a connection with other still living Force users they had known and had a close bond with. So while Luke lives (and others who the Jedi have known) they can maintain a presence.
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Old August 4 2014, 12:42 AM   #1703
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Reverend wrote: View Post
Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.
Having it be the natural result of a lot of extra training and meditation beforehand I would understand. But the way Lucas and TCW now make it seem like something you specifically train to do-- as if hanging around as a sparkly blue ghost for eternity is something every Jedi secretly wants to do-- is what seems odd to me.


Speaking of force ghosts, I wonder what the odds are of seeing Yoda again in the new trilogy are? Either speaking to Luke or to one of the younger Jedi in the movie? I haven't heard much rumored about it yet, but it seems to me that it's got to be a strong possibility. And it would definitely be cool as hell to see...
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Old August 4 2014, 12:59 AM   #1704
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Oh, I think we'll see Spirit Yoda again. A CGI ghost of the little green guy is one of those things I always expected to see again if any movies or TV projects set after Jedi were ever produced. No on-set puppetry required and since he'd be a ghost he wouldn't need to be in a lot of scenes and a major character of the film, so the digital effects team wouldn't have nearly as much to do this time around.
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Old August 4 2014, 01:07 AM   #1705
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I really don't see the need to bring back Force ghost Yoda the series needs to move forward, but seeng that Abrams brought back old Spock twice that's not going to happen.
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Old August 4 2014, 01:20 AM   #1706
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Yeah I suppose they could easily insert the CGI Yoda, but personally I'd much rather see the puppet again. I think it'd make the moment feel much more special and important than if it was just another CGI creation.

And plus it would provide a bit more consistency with how he looked in the OT, instead of jumping from CG to puppet to CG again.
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Old August 4 2014, 02:11 AM   #1707
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
^
Obi-Wan, actually.
It depends on which source you're looking at.

In Windham's books it's just Obi-Wan.

In the DVD commentary for ROTJ Lucas refers to both of them.

And I believe the Annotated Screenplays refer to just Yoda in this context.

So I guess I should have said "Obi-Wan and/or Yoda".
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Old August 4 2014, 02:17 AM   #1708
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I suppose once Anakin transitioned to the Other Side both Yoda and Obi-Wan could instruct him on how to preserve and maintain himself in spirit form. Yoda, after all, knew about the process before even Obi-Wan did (and also had hundreds of years' worth of Jedi training and experience in other things on top of that).

Who knows, perhaps even Qui-Gon showed up at some point along the way.
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Old August 4 2014, 05:23 AM   #1709
Reverend
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

davejames wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.
Having it be the natural result of a lot of extra training and meditation beforehand I would understand. But the way Lucas and TCW now make it seem like something you specifically train to do-- as if hanging around as a sparkly blue ghost for eternity is something every Jedi secretly wants to do-- is what seems odd to me.
I think there's suppsoed to be a lot more to it than just being a "force ghost". Indeed, that seems like it's only a side-ability that results from becoming one with the force, but maintaining individuality. Between Obi Wan's line in ANH and what was hinted at by the five Priestesses in TCW I think they truly become higher beings, not just disembodied minds.

IIRC in one early draft of RotJ, Obi Wan and/or Yoda both fully materialized and fought the Emperor beside Luke. I'm glad that idea was dropped, but it indicates the extent of what Lucas thought they could do whe he wrote the line "...I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

As such it'd make *less* sense if a Jedi didn't need to specifically train for this. Near godhood is hardly the kind of thing a person just stumbles over and figures out as they go.

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
Who knows, perhaps even Qui-Gon showed up at some point along the way.
In retrospect, more than likely given he tutored everyone else in this.
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Old August 4 2014, 05:53 AM   #1710
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Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

And: cue the CGI addition of "Spirit Qui-Gon" to the next home video release of Jedi.

Search your feelings. You know it to be....remotely plausible under certain conditions.
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