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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 15 2014, 03:15 AM   #76
2takesfrakes
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

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Old January 15 2014, 03:23 AM   #77
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
But the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts.
I understood plenty when I was 3. I was learning to read when I was 3 -- by definition, I couldn't do that if I couldn't understand what I was reading. Your assumptions about intelligence are profoundly misinformed and profoundly wrong. You should try reading up on the subject rather than just assuming you're right.

The really important part of intelligence isn't just understanding concepts. It's understanding that you can be wrong and have incomplete knowledge. Accepting that is the only way you can open your mind to learning more.
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Old January 15 2014, 03:30 AM   #78
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

When I said "... the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts," I was talking about animals, not children. Whereas you were trying to put them on equal terms. This is very much not the case. It's like one of those things people say, "animals are as smart as 3 year olds," the same way they all have to say that "Led Zepplin" or "The Beatles" are the greatest bands who ever lived. By your own admission, you understood concepts at three, you spoke words and all of those things which animals cannot do. These types of comparisons between animals and Humans just aren't there, I'm sorry.
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Old January 15 2014, 07:38 AM   #79
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
When I said "... the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts," I was talking about animals, not children. Whereas you were trying to put them on equal terms. This is very much not the case. It's like one of those things people say, "animals are as smart as 3 year olds," the same way they all have to say that "Led Zepplin" or "The Beatles" are the greatest bands who ever lived. By your own admission, you understood concepts at three, you spoke words and all of those things which animals cannot do. These types of comparisons between animals and Humans just aren't there, I'm sorry.
Do you understand the concepts that a whale understands? Do you understand, with 100% accuracy, what and how any non-human mammal thinks? I rather doubt it. I'm still learning new things about cats, and I've raised them for over 35 years.

I find it really hard to fathom how a purported Star Trek fan could be so narrow-minded.
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Old January 15 2014, 09:54 AM   #80
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

There are all kinds of intelligence, I suspect, and to dismiss others because they're not the precisely the same as ours or don't have features doled out in the same ratios as us smacks of chauvinism.
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Old January 15 2014, 11:19 AM   #81
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

"Narrow Minded"??? "Chauvenistic"???

You know ... you ... you people might think I'm all armour and nails, but when I get cut ... I hurt! And when I read these accusations ... I died inside ...



It might even surprise you to know that I stopped eating meat, altogether, a few years back, because I couldn't jutify becoming a tomb for other creatures, anymore.
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Old January 19 2014, 01:34 AM   #82
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Swearing coming from Spock is funny, no matter how mild it is. Particularly when he's using it wrong.
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Old January 19 2014, 01:57 AM   #83
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
When I said "... the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts," I was talking about animals, not children. Whereas you were trying to put them on equal terms. This is very much not the case.
I'm not "trying" to do anything. I'm passing along what recent scientific evidence has begun to demonstrate. Reality does not conform itself to our beliefs and prejudices; therefore we must conform our beliefs to the evidence. If you'd asked me two months ago whether I thought dogs were as aware as small children, I would've said no. I've never liked dogs or been that impressed by their intelligence. But now science tells me that they may very well have more awareness than we've realized, and since I'm a rational person, I modify my views to fit the evidence. Of course the evidence is inconclusive; it'll be a long time before we really understand how to define sapience or consciousness. But that's all the more reason to err on the side of caution and not be too quick to assume a life form isn't self-aware.
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Old January 19 2014, 01:34 PM   #84
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Scientists have been known to put a spin on research to say whatever they've wanted it to, in order to keep that grant money coming in. And studies on the same subject often conflict with eachother, from year to year. Certain segments of the scientific community has even been known to publish outright lies - even NASA scientists. I am just trying to put that into its proper perspective, as well.

I grew up with family pets and people have known for a long time that their pets are capable of things like counting, for example. Even something as primative as an insect can count food items, given to its maggots. There's all kinds of stuff like this going on that does make you wonder ... what are these animals truly capable of? Just how "aware" are they? And even Human Beings, for all of our assured self-awareness, whenever we first came across it, we did not know what to do with it. Now, that's very compelling, to me:

For along time, Humans did not know what to do with their Human intelligence. They just wandered about and didn't really do too much different, as before. And if I were an alien visiting Earth at that time, who knows what I'd think about them? Maybe I would be secure in my certain knowledge that these Humans were no better or different than a humpback whale. Maybe a certain species, or two, is at that crossroads, but I'll tell ya ... none, so far, have been able to contradict instinct. The only animals, in fact, who have shown any ability to thwart Human entanglements and manipulation are certain viruses, like the Common Cold. If the animal world was so brilliant, they'd defy our driving them to extinction.
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Old January 19 2014, 11:33 PM   #85
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Peach Wookiee wrote: View Post
Swearing coming from Spock is funny, no matter how mild it is. Particularly when he's using it wrong.
The hell it's funny.

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Old January 20 2014, 11:46 PM   #86
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

^The hell it is. And Spock saying the really nasty swear words like 'f**k' & 's**t' the same way we and Eddie Murphy does would have kicked ass and truly brought the house down.

At least Kirk in the new movies knows how to swear, with the ones that are truly still offensive.
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Old January 21 2014, 02:05 AM   #87
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

All I know about 20th century swearing I learned in Star Trek.

Fruity as a nutcake. LDS. Double dumbass.
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Old January 21 2014, 03:55 AM   #88
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Spock swearing was funny because it had never happened before. He was still not quite fully recovered from fal-tor-pan, and was still relearning some of his "social game" (nearest phrase I can think of to explain it).

In the next couple of movies, Spock was recovered enough to look at a situation, and make the conclusion that it would be logical to use a "colorful metaphor." Since he wasn't doing it all the time (or even more than once or twice), it was more effective.

NuSpock is already too emotional. Adding copious swearing would just turn him into an ill-mannered human with pointed ears.
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Old January 21 2014, 05:06 AM   #89
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

I agree. Spock swearing should be reserved for the rarest of occasions.
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Old January 21 2014, 11:53 AM   #90
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
NuSpock is already too emotional. Adding copious swearing would just turn him into an ill-mannered human with pointed ears.
But ... Trelane, the Squire of Gothos had observed that TOS Spock, too, was ... "ill-mannered." He attributed this trait to Spock's Human half. So, you see that? The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, NuSpock, Prime Spock, TOS Spock, Fal Tor Pan Spock ... it's all the same.
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