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Old January 8 2014, 04:21 AM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

They got rid of Seska and Cullah first.

Season one and two had a greater budget that was dedicated to supporting characters.

In season three, Berman (And Taylor? She was really against story arcs and continuity. She stole Chakotay's baby.) sacrificed those two, or whoever would replace them as Voyager continued to move through yet more foreign space, in favour of increasing their spfx budget for space battles and explosions.

If they wanted to keep Jennifer, all they need to do was bring the spfx budget back down to season 2 levels.

I know, I'm a riot.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:27 AM   #32
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

I mean I don't know exactly how it works but I feel like morale of the cast must have suffered....going through a period of "I wonder who's getting fired"...

I work in a creative line of work too...and it's hard to be creative and do a good job when stuff like that is going on around you. A creative work environment with tight deadlines and crazy hours is something I live every day...and it's much different from your average work environment. During that time of deciding who is going to get the sack, I'm sure it made things tense on the set and that is all just wasted focus and effort they could have been putting into their performance.

And Seska and Cullah weren't main cast anyway... I mean I liked when VOY utilized recurring characters since it didn't have enough of them....but eh I didn't feel that bad for those two though.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:50 AM   #33
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Not just those two actors, but "anyone" might dare to replace them over the next horizon who might have hung around for 5 or 6 episodes to frakk around with Voyager.

Human resources budget was transformed into spfx budget.

Imagine your boss fired 2 people to rent a new photo copier, and then a year later fires someone else rather then looking into renting a cheaper photocopier, to pay to bring in a new rainmaker.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:56 AM   #34
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Yeah....

That's sad.

I have to admit the special effects seasons 4-7 were noticeably better though.
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Old January 8 2014, 12:27 PM   #35
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Cullah recurring never made sense to me. Here goes Voyager, headed home at maximum warp, and then, here's Cullah again in his much... slower... ship?

The only way Voyager should have a recurring guest character was if they could actually move faster than Voyager somehow.
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Old January 8 2014, 12:43 PM   #36
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Voyager kept being held up, though ... what with this race not liking it when other species violate their territory ... or nebula with Made-for-TV properties that they have to drive around. These little detours can really add up ...
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Old January 8 2014, 01:10 PM   #37
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Voyager kept being held up, though ... what with this race not liking it when other species violate their territory ... or nebula with Made-for-TV properties that they have to drive around. These little detours can really add up ...
And Cullah would have had most of the same obstacles, and after a certain point his less advanced sensors would have lost Voyager, I would think.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:54 PM   #38
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

teacake wrote: View Post
When I saw Wang at a con he said they hardly make any money from syndication, dvd's etc..

Though what his hardly any money means I don't know. He talked about it like they get a couple hundred in the mail every few months.
That sounds about right, when is the last time you saw Voyager on TV? Anyone who was going to buy the DVDs already has. Voyager isn't really the show everyone is running out to buy action figures, trading cards, etc. these days.

If Voyager isn't making the studio much money right now (because they're not doing anything with it) then he wouldn't see the payouts. It's almost guaranteed he gets one of the lowest cuts out of the cast as well.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:18 PM   #39
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Yeah....

That's sad.

I have to admit the special effects seasons 4-7 were noticeably better though.
Computer SFX was advancing a lot during Voyagers run- they could generate shots impossible to do earlier.

Seska and Cullah did show up later than would make sense even with Voyager being delayed repeatedly. The Kazon were OK for the first episodes, but with the ship travelling as fast as possible through the sector it should have not had as many repealing villains IMO.
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Old January 8 2014, 06:22 PM   #40
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

They went backwards/off-course for months at least twice.

The trip to Tallax in Jetrel to save Neelix, and the back track to pick up Janeway in Resolutions (seriously, that one was between 5 and 8 months.)
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Old January 10 2014, 01:28 AM   #41
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

They really screwed over the Neelix character. He was jovial, hiding a lot of pain. He should’ve been interacted with a number of characters:

Janeway, as guide and morale officer

Chakotay, as they had something in common--both their worlds and families were destroyed by war, yet they chose very different paths from that, and both were given a second chance by Janeway, and then their spiritual beliefs (Neelix’s being destroyed when he “died)

Tuvok, as contrast, but that should have been the main humor, that Neelix could drive Tuvok to distraction

Bellana, as an example of overcoming tendencies (her belligerence, his act of...well, not sure if I’d call it cowardice in the war)


As in DS9, where not all characters interacted with every other character all the time, we could’ve had similar. I know, the studio didn’t want that. Funny that that’s how many shows with large ensembles have turned out since. Stupid studio. Stupid stupid studio.
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Old January 10 2014, 02:47 AM   #42
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Seska and Cullah did show up later than would make sense even with Voyager being delayed repeatedly. The Kazon were OK for the first episodes, but with the ship travelling as fast as possible through the sector it should have not had as many repealing villains IMO.
Regarding the general topic of the Kazon:

As I see it, the main problem wasn't so much the fact they keep meeting up with Kazon. The problem is the whole idea of 'Kazon Space' being defined as a specific area to be traversed, not unlike 'Romulan Space' and 'Klingon Space' (or indeed 'Borg Space').

A geographical area in which one particular culture dominates.

See, this is what devalues the Kazon as their own species and turns them into a 'Klingon-lite' threat.

The Kazon were conceived as a rag-tag lot. Not a single unified force, but a series of rival 'gangs'. I believe Michael Piller even made the overt comparison to Los Angeles gang culture.

Realistically, there *is* no such thing as 'Kazon Space'. Or at least there should never have been. As a species, there should have been pockets of individual Kazons that Voyager encountered as they progressed, but never the same group of Kazons.

They should have been encountering other 'gangs' who had arbitarily claimed their section of space. Pockets of Kazon dotted around unexpectedly. Different "patches" of communities with their own agendas and indeed their own unique tropes.

They sort of did this, but the writers kept forgetting. Piller kept writing memos saying "Remember that the Kazon are NOT Klingons!!! Rival gang culture!!!". But for whatever reason, he made no impact and the writers were tending to ignore him by then anyway.

What we got instead was a vaguely defined 'species' just like any other generic Planet-Of-Hats villain, and then return appearances of the same guy (Culluh) years after Voyager should have already left him long, long behind them.

And then a declaration in season three that somehow Voyager has now "left" something called 'Kazon Space'.

Gah.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:11 AM   #43
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

If they were different gangs, then they should have had different colours, or fashion or even hair style.

The Ogla were in the pilot, and the one with Nog.

Cullah was in charge of the Nistrim and we saw him collect his rivals for a war council.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:21 AM   #44
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Lance wrote: View Post
Seska and Cullah did show up later than would make sense even with Voyager being delayed repeatedly. The Kazon were OK for the first episodes, but with the ship travelling as fast as possible through the sector it should have not had as many repealing villains IMO.
Regarding the general topic of the Kazon:

As I see it, the main problem wasn't so much the fact they keep meeting up with Kazon. The problem is the whole idea of 'Kazon Space' being defined as a specific area to be traversed, not unlike 'Romulan Space' and 'Klingon Space' (or indeed 'Borg Space').
Conversely, conflicts should not have been exteriorized to the extent that they were. Seska was meant to represent a political philosophy opposed not only to Federation and the Maquis, but also an organization opposed to open dialogue. She could have remained on the ship, continually throwing wrenches in the works, without having her ferried along by Cullah or represented by the holodeck.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:21 AM   #45
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Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Guy Gardener wrote:
If they were different gangs, then they should have had different colours, or fashion or even hair style.

The Ogla were in the pilot, and the one with Nog.

Cullah was in charge of the Nistrim and we saw him collect his rivals for a war council.
Well exactly. They paid lip service to the idea a couple times, but ultimately bailed out and fell into a more comfortable zone of trying to depict them as a generic species.

Should have been more 'gangs'. Different gangs. And a much more obvious difference between each of them.

As it was, the differences between the Nistrim and the Ogla were about as stark as the differences between the House of Duras and the House of Martok. Fundamentally different philosophies, but basically identical on the surface.
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