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Old January 6 2014, 11:27 AM   #16
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Viva Sativa wrote:
As far as warp factors go there is no controversy.
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.
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Old January 6 2014, 01:19 PM   #17
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Continuity errors? James R. Kirk might have a thing or two to say about that.
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Old January 6 2014, 03:50 PM   #18
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But that was the problem. ENT, stylistically, structurally, and writing-wise, really wasn't all that different from Voyager which came before it.

I have no problems with changing preconceptions, but for the first two years the show was simply about a crew on a ship visiting planets/aliens-of-the-week. They even had a Seven-of-Nine clone. Every script for the first two seasons could have easily been written for Voyager.
I don't agree. Granted, UPN put pressure on the producers to make a show that was similar to Voyager, against the producers' wishes. (Berman and Braga wanted the whole first season to be like "First Flight," a Right Stuff-style narrative gradually building toward the start of the mission.) But despite that, I feel that ENT season 1 did a great job conveying a sense that these were pioneers doing everything for the first time, just beginning to feel their way as deep-space explorers and figure it out as they went. The VGR crew were out of their depth because they were in new territory, but they were seasoned veterans at space exploration in general, so it didn't capture that pioneer flavor quite as well.

Also, the astropolitical situation was relatively reversed. Even though Voyager was on its own, it was generally more advanced than the cultures around it, aside from a few isolated exceptions. It was traveling through a lawless region of the galaxy where its technology was coveted (at least in the early seasons). It was more a traditional American/European "frontier narrative" formula where the peoples on the frontier are backward or savage compared to the protagonists expanding into it. (The Borg were certainly advanced, but they were basically space zombies rather than a civilization per se, so they fit into the traditional "frontier savage" trope.)

But NX-01 was a vessel of a nascent starfaring people expanding into a space already dominated by more advanced and powerful states, and having to deal with the realpolitik that it faced there. It was a more modern, post-colonial approach to the frontier narrative, giving more agency to the nations that already occupied the so-called "frontier." And thus it was an interesting deconstruction of Star Trek's longstanding human-centrism and implicit America-centrism.


King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.
It doesn't "break" the universe, because the universe is just a story being told, and stories are mutable. It just revises the narrative. Storytellers should be allowed to fix past mistakes.

One of the pieces of advice given to writers in the TOS series bible was that they should not treat deep space as a local neighborhood -- that interstellar travel should be depicted as something that takes a lot of time and effort. Those occasional episodes and movies that depicted travel over such great distances as quick and easy were in contrast to what Roddenberry wanted. After all, this was a narrative whose creators were making it up as they went, discovering the rules gradually and making mistakes. And there aren't a lot of television or movie writers who have any real grasp of the immensity of the galaxy. So occasionally some unrealistic depictions slipped through. By TNG and its successors, the show had technical advisors on staff who laid down a firmer set of ground rules for how the universe worked, a refinement and formalization of principles that had been applied in a more slapdash manner in the past.

As a writer myself, I am very bothered by the attitude some fans have that every last detail in a series, even the mistakes and bad ideas, needs to be slavishly obeyed, that writers should be forbidden to correct their past mistakes or try to improve their worldbuilding. That's a terrible attitude. Sure, fixing past mistakes in an ongoing series creates continuity problems, but that's because you don't get to go back and revise what's already been released (except on occasion when you do, like in revised novel reissues, directors' cuts of movies, etc.). But it's better than being perpetually bound by those mistakes and bad ideas.
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Old January 6 2014, 05:17 PM   #19
RPOW0614
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

I like ENT. As others have pointed out all of the series are full of flaws (Warp 13 anyone?). I suggest you sit back, enjoy the ride and stop finding flaws for no real reason. It's fiction written by dozens of writers.
But ENT's 4th season did the most (IMHO) to try and weave all of the lingering plot holes together. Early Vulcans before finding the writings of Surak, the Klingon head ridges, the Augments. Manny Coto was doing some good work before they got cancelled.:rom mie:
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Old January 6 2014, 05:32 PM   #20
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Christopher wrote: View Post
So canon does not require you to accept every last episode, every last line, as indisputable fact. No canon does that with itself, so there's no reason why we should have to.
Thank you, Christopher.

Now, what, exactly, is this Voyager thing people keep talking about? Never heard of it.

(Kidding. I acknowledge Voyager. I wince a bit, but I acknowledge Voyager. But "Threshold"? Nuh uh.)
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Old January 6 2014, 05:35 PM   #21
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.

Fortunately, this abomination was later "de-retconned" in Season 4.

Other things didn't bother me that much. For instance, just because the Xindi had never previously appeared in another Trek show it doesn't mean that they never attacked Earth in the 22nd century. There are a lot of species (and a lot of historical events) out there and you can't expect that they are constantly mentioned.
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Old January 6 2014, 05:54 PM   #22
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

RPOW0614 wrote: View Post
I like ENT. As others have pointed out all of the series are full of flaws (Warp 13 anyone?).
How is that a flaw? There were references to warp 11 and higher in TOS before TNG came along and introduced the "warp 10 limit." It's been accepted for decades that the numbers were simply redefined between the 23rd and 24th centuries, so it's simple enough to assume they could be redefined again.


Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.
What? If you're referring to the idea that mindmelding was not accepted, that's building on what had earlier been established in "Fusion," which was that melding was unknown to most Vulcans, a lost art. Although there is a definite contradiction between "Fusion," where it wasn't known at all, and "Stigma," where it was known about but stigmatized. Also, "Stigma" retconned the events of "Fusion" by claiming that T'Pol was coerced into melding; she chose to meld voluntarily, and the coercion came later. Still, it was "Fusion" that initially defied our assumptions about the history of melding.

And no, that's not violating canon, because canon had never explicitly stated that melding was openly practiced in the 22nd century. We just assumed it was. It was certainly a reinterpretation, but not a direct contradiction of any previously established facts, as opposed to beliefs and expectations.


Fortunately, this abomination was later "de-retconned" in Season 4.
How boring would it have been if Vulcan history had turned out to unfold exactly as we've always expected, if they'd been a constant and unchanging society throughout? Look at how drastically our society has changed in the past 150 years in terms of civil rights, women's rights, sexual mores, etc. While I have quibbles with the details of how ENT handled the melding issue, I like it that they approached Vulcan history in a believable way, one in which the culture went through changes in its beliefs and politics as real cultures do. Far too many Trek cultures are depicted as static and unchanging from one century to the next. It was so much more interesting seeing the Vulcans having to learn to become the Vulcans we knew, rather than just being that way already.


Other things didn't bother me that much. For instance, just because the Xindi had never previously appeared in another Trek show it doesn't mean that they never attacked Earth in the 22nd century. There are a lot of species (and a lot of historical events) out there and you can't expect that they are constantly mentioned.
Not to mention that the Xindi would've needed to re-establish their civilization on a new homeworld after the depicted events. That's a process that could easily keep them busy for two centuries or more, keep them turned inward as they rebuilt their new home rather than traveling in space. Sometimes civilizations do that -- travel for a while, then turn inward as their priorities change.
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Old January 6 2014, 06:10 PM   #23
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

[QUOTE=Christopher;9091624]
RPOW0614 wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.
What? If you're referring to the idea that mindmelding was not accepted, that's building on what had earlier been established in "Fusion," which was that melding was unknown to most Vulcans, a lost art. Although there is a definite contradiction between "Fusion," where it wasn't known at all, and "Stigma," where it was known about but stigmatized. Also, "Stigma" retconned the events of "Fusion" by claiming that T'Pol was coerced into melding; she chose to meld voluntarily, and the coercion came later. Still, it was "Fusion" that initially defied our assumptions about the history of melding.

And no, that's not violating canon, because canon had never explicitly stated that melding was openly practiced in the 22nd century. We just assumed it was. It was certainly a reinterpretation, but not a direct contradiction of any previously established facts, as opposed to beliefs and expectations.
Among other things, "Stigma" established that only a very tiny minority of Vulcans were even biologically capable of conducting a mind-meld (with the writers' clear intent of turning "the melders" into the Vulcan version of gays) which was a bit hard to swallow considering that pretty much every Vulcan we had previously encountered had conducted a mind-meld at some point... Spock, Sarek, Tuvok, those Vulcan priests in TMP and TSFS, Sarek's assistent in "Sarek" (TNG), Sakonna in "The Maquis" (DS9) and so on...

Or to quote Memory Alpha:

During the 22nd century, mind melding was believed to be an ability only a minority of Vulcans were born to. Because of the apparent intimacy of melding, Vulcans during this era considered it a deviant practice defiant to the ancestral teachings of their society. As a result, other Vulcans considered those who were natural "melders" to be outcasts. (ENT: "Stigma")
But the point is moot really, because it was then subsequently established in Season 4 that this had been simply a lie promulgated by the Vulcan High Command. That's good enough for me.

But my original reaction to "Stigma" was basically: WTF?
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Old January 6 2014, 06:58 PM   #24
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And that is creator intent, because it's the intent of just about any creator to keep tweaking and refining a creation as long as possible.
Apparently the creators' intent was to piss off the fans of Enterprise.
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Old January 6 2014, 08:18 PM   #25
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

^You're attributing my statement to Nerys Myk there.

Seriously, would someone please rewrite this board's editing software so that attributions automatically go with the right quotes? The way it is now, if you're quoting a quote inside a quote, you have to edit out the extra attributions manually and it's far too easy to take out one too many and leave the wrong attribution in place. It's a persistent flaw in the software and I wish someone would fix it.
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Old January 6 2014, 10:32 PM   #26
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Christopher wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.
It doesn't "break" the universe, because the universe is just a story being told, and stories are mutable. It just revises the narrative. Storytellers should be allowed to fix past mistakes.
It does break it if one wishes to reconcile Voyager with "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or STV without pretending they didn't actually travel to the rim or centre of the galaxy as shown.
One of the pieces of advice given to writers in the TOS series bible was that they should not treat deep space as a local neighborhood -- that interstellar travel should be depicted as something that takes a lot of time and effort. Those occasional episodes and movies that depicted travel over such great distances as quick and easy were in contrast to what Roddenberry wanted. After all, this was a narrative whose creators were making it up as they went, discovering the rules gradually and making mistakes. And there aren't a lot of television or movie writers who have any real grasp of the immensity of the galaxy. So occasionally some unrealistic depictions slipped through. By TNG and its successors, the show had technical advisors on staff who laid down a firmer set of ground rules for how the universe worked, a refinement and formalization of principles that had been applied in a more slapdash manner in the past.
I'd say a lot more than a few ultrafast journeys "slipped through" - off the top of my head...

TOS: Where No Man Has Gone Before
TOS: By Any Other Name
TAS: The Magicks of Megas Tu
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
TNG: Conspiracy
Star Trek: First Contact
ENT: "Broken Bow"
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek
Star Trek Into Darkness

Add to that just about any Deep Space Nine episode where they travelled from the station to Earth, Kronos, Cardassia, Ferenginar or any other Alpha/Beta quadrant planet, often by Runabout, in the space of a scene break.

How many examples of Voyager/technical manual chart warp speeds are there in Trek canon? It seems to me as if they are by far in the minority compared to the ones that would render Voyager's epic journey moot.
As a writer myself, I am very bothered by the attitude some fans have that every last detail in a series, even the mistakes and bad ideas, needs to be slavishly obeyed, that writers should be forbidden to correct their past mistakes or try to improve their worldbuilding. That's a terrible attitude. Sure, fixing past mistakes in an ongoing series creates continuity problems, but that's because you don't get to go back and revise what's already been released (except on occasion when you do, like in revised novel reissues, directors' cuts of movies, etc.). But it's better than being perpetually bound by those mistakes and bad ideas.
My point was merely to illustrate that there are bigger and more fundamental continuity issues in Trek than those presented in Enterprise.
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Old January 6 2014, 10:45 PM   #27
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Viva Sativa wrote:
As far as warp factors go there is no controversy.
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.
Kirk's Enterprise reached the center of the galaxy as they know it. If you understand vectors you would know that the Milky Way isn't on a flat plane. It's more like a pizza box at a 45 degree angle with a corner of the box being it's lowest point on a vertical scale. Can you read headings? Because you could leave a galaxy in a fraction of the time if you don't fly within the horizon.
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Old January 6 2014, 10:53 PM   #28
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

Christopher wrote: View Post
How boring would it have been if Vulcan history had turned out to unfold exactly as we've always expected, if they'd been a constant and unchanging society throughout?
But... wouldn't boring be *appropriate* for Vulcans?
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Old January 6 2014, 10:57 PM   #29
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

^^Problem being they left the galaxy at the rim, not by travelling "up" or "down"

From "By Any Other Name"...

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/50.htm

Thus placing both it and "Where No Man..." at the galactic rim, far far further out than you (and the 2002 Star Trek Star Charts) postulate.
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Old January 6 2014, 11:27 PM   #30
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Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^^Problem being they left the galaxy at the rim, not by travelling "up" or "down"

From "By Any Other Name"...

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/50.htm

Thus placing both it and "Where No Man..." at the galactic rim, far far further out than you (and the 2002 Star Trek Star Charts) postulate.
I'll try to be as rudimentary as possible so you can understand. A penny has a rim. If just one amoeba was on said penny, how would you locate it when all you know is it's on the rim?

The galaxy isn't round or even symmetrical so how would you approximate where by the rim they are in galactic proportions if you can't even find an amoeba on a penny.

My point is the rim is most likely not a ring, not spherical but definitely three dimensional and it enveloped the galaxy. So how do you know how long it should have taken them if you have no idea where they were?
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