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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 8 2014, 02:21 PM   #76
Shaka Zulu
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
NuCarol won't be remembered for much other than her unnecessary underwear scene.
Said scene was to show how wrong Kirk is in treating women, and is actually a great scene (from the way that Carol Marcus says 'Turn around' we get that Kirk learns that Carol is not like the other ladies and won't put up with this bullshit that he likes to do; thereby, Kirk leans not to do this to women ever again.

Uhura was never used to any full potential due to the era in which TOS was made, her mere presence was enough of an impact to many, but she showed herself to be a warm and friendly woman with strength. NuUhura has turned my favourite character of TOS into something thoroughly unpleasant.
Care to elaborate? All that I (and the average moviegoer) saw was a lady who's a lover and a competent officer living life and going about her job quite well, albeit with some issues to work out beween her and her boyfriend this time aaround.

Any of the female characters on DS9 (Kira, Jadzia, Ezri, Kasidy, Winn, even Leeta) had more development and depth than any of the female characters in the latest films.
And outside of fandom, not many people know (or remember) those ladies that well, I'll bet. Whereas they do know who Nyota and Carol are, and respond to the way they are in the movie.

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Don't forget the scream!
What of it? She was terrified, as anybody mioght be in that situation.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
The TNG women got some good scenes in the four movies, but I don't think there was much development. Sirtis' work on Nemesis (the Viceroy subplot) was quite good, but it didn't add much to the characters development. It was Violations redux. Perhaps that would be different if the focus were on one of the other series' "crews" (which were less male-heavy at the top), but I would tend to think it would be more because of the work done by the series rather than by the film itself.
The women did little than just react to things, and set up Stewart, Spiner and Frakes. Contrast this with the new movies, in which both of the female characters are proactive and are more part of the plot than the TNG ladies were (being raped like Troi was was beyond ridiculous; at least Carol Marcus had a funny scene designed to show how Kirk has to change how he sees women.)
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Old January 8 2014, 02:27 PM   #77
Bad Thoughts
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Don't forget the scream!
What of it? She was terrified, as anybody mioght be in that situation.
All I am saying is that we should not forget the other cliche she represents.
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Old January 8 2014, 02:36 PM   #78
Shaka Zulu
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

^ I see what you mean.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:10 PM   #79
JarodRussell
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

I still remember the woman screaming in First Contact in the Jeffries tube. That was so nicely done, because we didn't hear her actual scream, we only heard the soundtrack (brilliantly done by either Joel or Jerry Goldsmith).
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Old January 8 2014, 05:53 PM   #80
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

If I saw someone pop my father's head like an egg I'd probably scream too, even if I was on the outs with him at the time.
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Old January 8 2014, 05:56 PM   #81
JarodRussell
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

The only thing about the end of DS9 that bothered me was: WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T THEY JUST TELL HIM TO DESTROY THE FUCKING BOOK?!?!
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Old January 8 2014, 05:57 PM   #82
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

Because that wasn't what he was destined to do. The Prophets are non-linear, they knew this.
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Old January 8 2014, 06:22 PM   #83
JarodRussell
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

DonIago wrote: View Post
Because that wasn't what he was destined to do. The Prophets are non-linear, they knew this.
Sure. As it plays out in the finale, his only destiny is to destroy the damn book. It's all about the book, because that one is the one and only key to ever free the pah wraiths, his "mother" even says that clearly in the whitespace at the end. They could have told him that in the very first episode. "Go find the book and destroy it. Fetch! Attaboy."
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Old January 8 2014, 06:26 PM   #84
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

^However, he did destroy the book from their non-linear perspective. Why would they tell him to do something he does?
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Old January 8 2014, 07:35 PM   #85
rhubarbodendron
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

but from their non-linear perspective the book has never existed/exists/will always exist - they just have to pick a time and stick with it.
Writing a book and destroying it is something linear. Wouldn't it therefore be irrelevant to the prophets?

The same would apply to the pah wraiths: if they are like the prophets, they are non-linear and hence can not be destroyed because they are kindof eternal. If they are not like the prophets but linear, they wouldn't matter to the prophets because for the prophets there would always exist a time in which the Pah wraiths didn't yet exist (or not anymore)

Argh! this non-linear stuff is difficult to expain in a foreign language!
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Old January 8 2014, 07:59 PM   #86
Timewalker
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
The TNG women got some good scenes in the four movies, but I don't think there was much development.
What good scenes? In Generations, Deanna crashed the ship. Forever after, fandom has been full of jokes about how she can't drive.

Was it in Generations that they did that silly ceremony in the holdeck and Beverly got pushed into the water?

In First Contact, Deanna's main contribution to the movie is getting drunk. At least Beverly got to do doctor-type things, but there wasn't any character development.

In Insurrection, the ladies seemed pleased that their bodies were firmer than they used to be, but I don't recall any other scenes they did.

I've mercifully forgotten most of Nemesis, period, except the really annoying crap. Beverly and Deanna's scenes weren't even annoying enough to remember.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
NuCarol won't be remembered for much other than her unnecessary underwear scene.
Said scene was to show how wrong Kirk is in treating women, and is actually a great scene (from the way that Carol Marcus says 'Turn around' we get that Kirk learns that Carol is not like the other ladies and won't put up with this bullshit that he likes to do; thereby, Kirk leans not to do this to women ever again.
Oh, so nuKirk will never, ever again peek when a woman tells him not to? Yeah, I totally believe that.

That scene was for the purpose of showing what female officers wear under their uniform dresses. It wasn't for the purpose of showing nuKirk having an epiphany about manners and growing up.

Uhura was never used to any full potential due to the era in which TOS was made, her mere presence was enough of an impact to many, but she showed herself to be a warm and friendly woman with strength. NuUhura has turned my favourite character of TOS into something thoroughly unpleasant.
Care to elaborate? All that I (and the average moviegoer) saw was a lady who's a lover and a competent officer living life and going about her job quite well, albeit with some issues to work out beween her and her boyfriend this time aaround.
The problem with nuUhura is that she doesn't leave her boyfriend problems off-duty like a mature, professional officer would do. She bitches and whines at him during a critical mission and actually basically tells her captain to shut up while she proceeds to bitch and whine at her boyfriend.

NuUhura would be a much better character if they'd just let her get on with her work on-duty (I have no issue with her being able to speak Klingon and fight), and leave her romantic crap for off-duty. I'm sure they could sacrifice a couple of special effects scenes and use that time for a little character development that doesn't mean these people are acting unprofessional while on duty.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:08 PM   #87
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

While the mission itself may have been critical, the specific juncture at which the conversation came up didn't seem especially crucial.

Besides, it's nothing we haven't seen before, with Worf and Jadzia perhaps as the pinnacle of unprofessionalism.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:09 PM   #88
JarodRussell
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
but from their non-linear perspective the book has never existed/exists/will always exist - they just have to pick a time and stick with it.
Writing a book and destroying it is something linear. Wouldn't it therefore be irrelevant to the prophets?

The same would apply to the pah wraiths: if they are like the prophets, they are non-linear and hence can not be destroyed because they are kindof eternal. If they are not like the prophets but linear, they wouldn't matter to the prophets because for the prophets there would always exist a time in which the Pah wraiths didn't yet exist (or not anymore)

Argh! this non-linear stuff is difficult to expain in a foreign language!
The pah wraiths were imprisoned at a linear point in time and about to be set free at a linear point in time. So they could have simply told him from the start what to do.

Every time they interact with a non linear being, they need to step down into the non linear realm as well.

Especially weird it becomes when you think about how Sisko taught them the concept of linear time in the pilot. So did they now always know about linear time, since they are non linear, or did they learn about it later, which would be linear?
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Old January 8 2014, 08:26 PM   #89
Bad Thoughts
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
but from their non-linear perspective the book has never existed/exists/will always exist - they just have to pick a time and stick with it.
Writing a book and destroying it is something linear. Wouldn't it therefore be irrelevant to the prophets?

The same would apply to the pah wraiths: if they are like the prophets, they are non-linear and hence can not be destroyed because they are kindof eternal. If they are not like the prophets but linear, they wouldn't matter to the prophets because for the prophets there would always exist a time in which the Pah wraiths didn't yet exist (or not anymore)

Argh! this non-linear stuff is difficult to expain in a foreign language!
The pah wraiths were imprisoned at a linear point in time and about to be set free at a linear point in time. So they could have simply told him from the start what to do.

Every time they interact with a non linear being, they need to step down into the non linear realm as well.

Especially weird it becomes when you think about how Sisko taught them the concept of linear time in the pilot. So did they now always know about linear time, since they are non linear, or did they learn about it later, which would be linear?
It's never established that the Prophets were either omniscient or omnipresent. They are non-corporeal and atemporal. From their perspective, they send "The Sisko," and the threat is averted. They know the success of their plan; telling him about it ahead of time would be nice, but from their perspective, it's not necessary. Do they know that there is a book that would free their enemies? I don't remember that being established, only that there is an attempt to release them.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:28 PM   #90
Timewalker
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Re: DS9 deserved a movie

DonIago wrote: View Post
While the mission itself may have been critical, the specific juncture at which the conversation came up didn't seem especially crucial.

Besides, it's nothing we haven't seen before, with Worf and Jadzia perhaps as the pinnacle of unprofessionalism.
The specific juncture doesn't matter. It was still really unprofessional. And no, I'm not excusing Worf and Jadzia. What they did was wrong, and deserved to get slapped down for it.
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