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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 8 2014, 07:14 PM   #91
Paul Weaver
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
I think it would have been interesting to have Patrick Stewart play both roles instead of Tom Hardy. No reason to change the script- not only would the whole clone thing be dead on but Stewart could pull it off well.
The two Dr. Bishops in 'Fringe' show how well two versions of the same man with two different histories could interact...
One of the many lost opportunites.

Remove the stupid dune buggy
Remove B4
Remove the mind-rape stuff
Redo the dumb "Shinzon spends ages persuading them he's good, then in the next scene they find out the truth"
Bigger roles for the non-Picard non-Data crew

For a radical change, they could have done was kill off Picard early in the film, say on buggy planet, and have them encounter his evil twin at Romulus. Have Data die at the end of the film too, as Spiner was far too big for his boots at this point.

This would have allowed Riker to get the big E after all at the end, Worf as his first officer, the family could then stay together, get rid of the two most expensive characters. For bonus points, find a good way of having Picard come back at the end

However even a few minor changes in the wedding scene would have been nice
1) A brief conversation between Guinan to Worf about "Ambassadorial life didn't suit you // no, Alexander is far better at it". Remove the stupid Worf-Hungover part. If OBrien + Bashir can cope with Worf's bachelor party, Worf can cope with Rikers

2) I'm glad they cut the Wesley-back-in-starfleet line out, but a quick explanation as to why he's in a trek uniform (or just have him in civies)

The apparent ignoring of previous facts by the writers (Where's Lwaxana, why's worf in uniform, what's Wesley doing,) was fixed in the books, which is great, but should have been in the film. The character assassination of Worf continues after his zit in INS though
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Old January 9 2014, 01:41 AM   #92
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Eh, I only love Worf more in this movie.

Data: "It appears to be a robotic arm."
Worf: "...very astute."

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Old January 9 2014, 01:07 PM   #93
starburst
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post

For a radical change, they could have done was kill off Picard early in the film, say on buggy planet, and have them encounter his evil twin at Romulus. Have Data die at the end of the film too, as Spiner was far too big for his boots at this point.

This would have allowed Riker to get the big E after all at the end, Worf as his first officer, the family could then stay together, get rid of the two most expensive characters. For bonus points, find a good way of having Picard come back at the end
I like this idea of the Enterprise crew facing off against their recently deceased Captain but it not really being him.

A way to bring Picard back could be that whatever they were doing on the planet be it finding B4 (or maybe switch it to Lore) or something else entirely was still orchestrated by Shinzon who set it up to remove his double from the equation but Picard was only kidnapped which the rest of the crew didnt know.

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
Remove the stupid Worf-Hungover part. If OBrien + Bashir can cope with Worf's bachelor party, Worf can cope with Rikers
Or a comment that reveals that the real reason Klingons hate Romulans is that the big social drinkers of the galaxy cant handle Romulan Ale...

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
The apparent ignoring of previous facts by the writers (Where's Lwaxana, why's worf in uniform, what's Wesley doing,) was fixed in the books, which is great, but should have been in the film.
Ive not read those books, how do they explain it?
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Old January 9 2014, 01:22 PM   #94
cardinal biggles
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

starburst wrote: View Post
Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
The apparent ignoring of previous facts by the writers (Where's Lwaxana, why's worf in uniform, what's Wesley doing,) was fixed in the books, which is great, but should have been in the film.
Ive not read those books, how do they explain it?
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Old January 9 2014, 05:05 PM   #95
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Is there anything in this movie that's more out-of-the-blue than Shinzon's decision to destroy Earth?
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Old January 9 2014, 05:15 PM   #96
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Of all the crap in this movie that makes little or no sense, that one certainly does float straight to the top.
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Old January 9 2014, 05:24 PM   #97
F. King Daniel
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

It seemed like an extension of his obsessive hatred for Picard to me. Picard had everything, the humans had everything, Shinzy was raised in a mine by abusive Romulans and freaky Remans and was nothing but a duplicate anyway. The echo wanted to wipe out the voice and everything important to it.
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Old January 9 2014, 06:36 PM   #98
slappy
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

There are many reasons, but I think it's been covered ad nauseum. I think most Trek fans off the street could've fixed it. There was a decent movie in there somewhere, but it's flaws just weighed it down too much.

1. Shinzon should've been a Romulan. Not a clone. Just a regular old Romulan.

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.

Instead.....trying to destroy the Earth AGAIN.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:00 PM   #99
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

slappy wrote: View Post

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.
But no one would've cared. That is the problem with Trek movies, people want to see Earth in danger not some fictional place they've never heard of before.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:34 PM   #100
JarodRussell
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Yeah, so stupid of James Cameron to put Pandora in danger. Had it been Earth, the film would have made exactly 2.567 times as much at the box office.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:43 PM   #101
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
The apparent ignoring of previous facts by the writers (Where's Lwaxana, why's worf in uniform, what's Wesley doing,) was fixed in the books, which is great, but should have been in the film.
Ive not read those books, how do they explain it?
Yes! I just finished reading the "A Time To..." series for the first time, and I loved it. Also, I read these long after I've read the Titan series, which is why I'm reading the Titan series again so that it makes more sense.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:55 AM   #102
Mr Light
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth in order to defeat the Federation, which is the campaign promise he made to the Romulan military in order to overthrow the Senate.

I never understood why blowing up Earth is supposed to cripple an alliance of thousands of worlds, personally
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Old January 10 2014, 05:19 AM   #103
MauriceNavidad
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
I think someone mentioned it on the first page, but here's The Facer's annotated Nemesis screenplay, which I found lurking in a dark corner of my hard drive.

download PDF
That "annotation" is juveline tripe worse than the screenplay it flaccidly attempts to skewer. I didn't bother beyond script page 1.
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Old January 10 2014, 08:28 PM   #104
sonak
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

BillJ wrote: View Post
slappy wrote: View Post

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.
But no one would've cared. That is the problem with Trek movies, people want to see Earth in danger not some fictional place they've never heard of before.

exhibit A Insurrection

Even taking away the dilemma, and making it a straight "save the Baku!" movie the audience is left with "WTF are the Baku and why do we care about a group we've never seen before and won't see again?"
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Old January 10 2014, 10:54 PM   #105
JarodRussell
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
slappy wrote: View Post

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.
But no one would've cared. That is the problem with Trek movies, people want to see Earth in danger not some fictional place they've never heard of before.

exhibit A Insurrection

Even taking away the dilemma, and making it a straight "save the Baku!" movie the audience is left with "WTF are the Baku and why do we care about a group we've never seen before and won't see again?"
Why did people care about the Na'vi?

Was Earth in danger in TWOK? Or TSFS?

When was Earth in danger in Star Wars?

Is Middle-Earth really enough Earth so that people suddenly care?
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