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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 3 2014, 07:11 PM   #31
GotNoRice
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post
By the time the movie came out there was a lot of pent-up desire for a good trek movie.
Obviously, there was no demand for a Trek movie period. Nemesis was beaten by Maid in Manhattan its opening weekend and things just got worse from there.
Perhaps not among the general public, but there certainly was among Star Trek fans. Voyager had ended extremely abruptly, with almost no Alpha-quadrant followup, and DS9 left a lot of things ambiguous as well. Nemesis was our only hope at the time for getting any resolution to any of this. Obviously, it didn't deliver.

BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post
Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
The reason 24th century Trek (and Enterprise) is no more is because it didn't change with the environment around it. The same basic dull characters, camera angles, music and spaceships hung around for twenty-five seasons and four movies. There was no growth and the franchise floundered against more creative and dramatically appealing fare.
First Contact was a fantastic movie, and I didn't think Generations was half-bad either. A good plot is all it takes.
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Old January 3 2014, 07:17 PM   #32
BillJ
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GotNoRice wrote: View Post

Perhaps not among the general public, but there certainly was among Star Trek fans. Voyager had ended extremely abruptly, with almost no Alpha-quadrant followup, and DS9 left a lot of things ambiguous as well. Nemesis was our only hope at the time for getting any resolution to any of this. Obviously, it didn't deliver.
Not among any Trek fans that I knew. Most of the fans I knew were totally burned out on Star Trek. I was totally burned out on Star Trek and I didn't care about follow-ups to Deep Space Nine or Voyager.

BillJ wrote: View Post

First Contact was a fantastic movie, and I didn't think Generations was half-bad either. A good plot is all it takes.
Star Trek: First Contact was a zombie movie wearing Trek clothes. I'd rather watch Nemesis.
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Old January 3 2014, 07:34 PM   #33
GotNoRice
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post

Perhaps not among the general public, but there certainly was among Star Trek fans. Voyager had ended extremely abruptly, with almost no Alpha-quadrant followup, and DS9 left a lot of things ambiguous as well. Nemesis was our only hope at the time for getting any resolution to any of this. Obviously, it didn't deliver.
Not among any Trek fans that I knew. Most of the fans I knew were totally burned out on Star Trek. I was totally burned out on Star Trek and I didn't care about follow-ups to Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
I guess we knew different fans. Back in the day even this board was going nuts with excitement in anticipation of Nemesis.

BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post

First Contact was a fantastic movie, and I didn't think Generations was half-bad either. A good plot is all it takes.
Star Trek: First Contact was a zombie movie wearing Trek clothes. I'd rather watch Nemesis.
Everyone's opinions are different of course but First Contact is almost universally accepted as being the best TNG movie. It also has the highest IMDB rating.
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Old January 3 2014, 07:55 PM   #34
Timby
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GotNoRice wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post

Perhaps not among the general public, but there certainly was among Star Trek fans. Voyager had ended extremely abruptly, with almost no Alpha-quadrant followup, and DS9 left a lot of things ambiguous as well. Nemesis was our only hope at the time for getting any resolution to any of this. Obviously, it didn't deliver.
Not among any Trek fans that I knew. Most of the fans I knew were totally burned out on Star Trek. I was totally burned out on Star Trek and I didn't care about follow-ups to Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
I guess we knew different fans. Back in the day even this board was going nuts with excitement in anticipation of Nemesis.
I would say "going nuts" is an overstatement. There was a fair amount of interest in it, and people were intrigued by John Logan writing (this was before he was exposed as a bobo who piggybacks on other people's work), but the wind fell right out of the sails when the script leaked (and a blogger named The Facer did an annotated review of it) and people realized it was going to be a massive pile of dogshit.
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Old January 3 2014, 08:05 PM   #35
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The dune buggy chase has got to be one of the most wrongheadedly superfluous scenes in Trek history.
I've seen at least one fan edit which omits it entirely, and the movie loses nothing. A quick shot of our crew on the planet picking up pieces of android, then a cross-fade back to the Enterprise. Tightens the scene up nicely. Really shows just how superfluous it is.

If only the rest of the movie were so easy to fix!
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Old January 3 2014, 08:10 PM   #36
GalaxyX
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

BillJ wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post
By the time the movie came out there was a lot of pent-up desire for a good trek movie.
Obviously, there was no demand for a Trek movie period. Nemesis was beaten by Maid in Manhattan its opening weekend and things just got worse from there.


Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
The reason 24th century Trek (and Enterprise) is no more is because it didn't change with the environment around it. The same basic dull characters, camera angles, music and spaceships hung around for twenty-five seasons and four movies. There was no growth and the franchise floundered against more creative and dramatically appealing fare.

I've been a fan of Trek since 1975 and the best thing about the Abrams movies is that they brought a sense of fun back to a franchise that had been missing it for far too long. YMMV.
This.

They kept on rehashing the exact same styles in every single show and movie. For the movies they needed to at least update some of the more worn out stuff.

JJ Abrams Trek is what I wanted to see with the TNG crew, in the sense that they needed to drop the lame jokes and stale writing, and become a bit more fast paced and contemporary

Timby wrote: View Post
GotNoRice wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Not among any Trek fans that I knew. Most of the fans I knew were totally burned out on Star Trek. I was totally burned out on Star Trek and I didn't care about follow-ups to Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
I guess we knew different fans. Back in the day even this board was going nuts with excitement in anticipation of Nemesis.
I would say "going nuts" is an overstatement. There was a fair amount of interest in it, and people were intrigued by John Logan writing (this was before he was exposed as a bobo who piggybacks on other people's work), but the wind fell right out of the sails when the script leaked (and a blogger named The Facer did an annotated review of it) and people realized it was going to be a massive pile of dogshit.
I remember my exposure to the script was a site that jokingly let you rewrite the script. I thought the script it was using was a joke script, and still went into the movie expecting something much better. I was wide eyed the whole movie to see that this lame "joke" script was repeating exactly the same in the movie.
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Old January 3 2014, 08:10 PM   #37
Harvey
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
The budgets were far beneath the ambitions of every Trek movie script from Wrath of Khan to Nemesis. The TOS films compensate with better writing (as you pointed out with your comparison to Search for Spock), while the TNG films tried to compensate, for better or worse, by making Picard the action hero he never was. Throwing more money at Nemesis would have simply resulted in the film being an even bigger flop.
This is true, and I think the best films in the series modulated their ambitions to fit their budgetary constraints. When I point out that the script had more ambition than the budget allowed, that's not a criticism of the budget, it's a criticism of the script. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was made for less than any of the other films in the series, but it still holds up because Meyer and Bennett planned ahead and spent their money wisely.

Star Trek: Nemesis falls apart in terms of scope as soon as we see the Senate of the Romulan Star Empire and there's barely enough extras to populate a PTA meeting.

Considering that, adjusted for inflation*, the budget of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was $24.24 million (less than half of the $60 million that went into Star Trek: Nemesis), Baird, Logan, and Paramount did not spend their money wisely.

*From 1982 to 2002 dollars.
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Old January 3 2014, 08:57 PM   #38
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The dune buggy chase has got to be one of the most wrongheadedly superfluous scenes in Trek history.
I've seen at least one fan edit which omits it entirely, and the movie loses nothing. A quick shot of our crew on the planet picking up pieces of android, then a cross-fade back to the Enterprise. Tightens the scene up nicely. Really shows just how superfluous it is.

If only the rest of the movie were so easy to fix!
What's so messed up is that there was no reason to shoot that sequence at all. No need to show the planet's surface in any way. No need for the action sequence. Just go into orbit over the planet, beam up the android parts, done. That probably would have saved a couple million bucks and the film would have lost nothing.

Wasn't that whole sequence something that got added because Patrick Stewart wanted more action-oriented scenes? There is no story reason to justify it, as far as I can tell.

And that's just one example of the many, many things wrong with the script, and with the film itself.
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Old January 3 2014, 09:32 PM   #39
F. King Daniel
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GotNoRice wrote:
Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.
Star Trek has never been a charity for nerds. Making money was always been Gene Roddenberry's and Rick Berman's #1 goal.

RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
Read the novels, the adventures of TNG, DS9 and Voyager continue on to this day (along with TOS and ENT)
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Old January 3 2014, 10:44 PM   #40
JarodRussell
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Wasn't that whole sequence something that got added because Patrick Stewart wanted more action-oriented scenes? There is no story reason to justify it, as far as I can tell.
Even if it was Stewart's demand, there is no reason why it is not integrated into the story properly. The attackers could already have been Reman for example.

John Eaves also once wrote on his blog that the buggy was supposed to be hovering, but that Baird shot that idea down because he wanted wheels.

But the argument "no need for an action sequence" is kinda faulty in itself. There is NEVER a need for an action sequence other than added spectacle. You can cut out the escape from the Scimitar, you can cut out the entire final battle from the script.
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Old January 3 2014, 11:17 PM   #41
Richard Baker
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The very first time )IIRC) we ever saw a wheeled vehicle in Trek and it has to be a Dune Buggy? Not only that, but you are racing against generic aliens who just happen to have their own dune buggies to chase you with?
The film almost lost me there.
Having a boring bad guy with misplaced motivation on yet another super-bad-guy ship.
Not having the courage to remove a major character when you decide to and having a convenient identical backup handy, but blank enough so if Data does emerge he you will not feel a loss- Lore is still dismantled and in storage- use his body with a backed up CPU if you want Data to return in the next film.
I liked the big space battle at the end, but then again I love big space battles every time. Having the enemy completely cloaked took a lot out of it- I want to see the ships moving and firing against each other, not a bunch of misses and watching Worf pounding the console in frustration.

For the final film it could have been so much more, I still watch it but with fast forward...
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Old January 3 2014, 11:39 PM   #42
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I think the thing that pisses me off the most about Nemesis is that it contradicts some of Diane Duane's completely excellent books on Vulcans and Romulans. It's the same thing that irritated me about the way Vulcans were portrayed on Enterprise. Feh.
Those books aren't official canon, though; the movies and TV shows are. And Ms. Duane was never consulted by the writers of the movies and TV shows on how Vulcans and Romulans should be.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
Read the novels, the adventures of TNG, DS9 and Voyager continue on to this day (along with TOS and ENT)
And they also continue on somewhat in the game Star Trek Online.
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Old January 3 2014, 11:57 PM   #43
Galileo7
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Harvey wrote: View Post
The movie criminally wastes Ron Perlman and Tom Hardy as the heavies. The whole cast looks tired and disengaged (then again, they read the script, had to deal with Stuart Baird, and knew this was probably the end of the road). The budget was far beneath the ambitions of the script, preventing the movie from realizing action of any scale, which makes it feel cheap, compromised, and unexciting (and the fact that some of the budget went to a silly car chase doesn't help matters).

Most of all, though, the script is terrible, in plotting, characterization, and (especially) in terms of dialogue. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock also looked cheap and had clumsy plotting, but it nailed the characters and the dialogue. I don't have to tell you which one I'm more likely to revisit; if it didn't come in the four movie box set I bought on Blu-Ray for $1, I wouldn't have Star Trek: Nemesis in my collection.

It's not a total failure (I like the Goldsmith score, and Dina Meyer is good in her role), but being bad rather than terrible is hardly an achievement worth putting on your resume.
Agree.
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Old January 4 2014, 12:07 AM   #44
BillJ
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
The very first time )IIRC) we ever saw a wheeled vehicle in Trek and it has to be a Dune Buggy?
Kirk and Spock drove a car in "A Piece of the Action".
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Old January 4 2014, 12:08 AM   #45
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GotNoRice wrote: View Post
Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

"metrosexual" . . . huh?

And what's wrong with college kids? (Asks this card-carrying member of AARP.) Are the movies supposed to cater only to us aging fans? That sounds like a recipe for obsolescence to me.

(Heck, I was a college kid when TMP and TWOK came out. Didn't stop me from seeing them multiple times with all my college friends.)

And let's be honest here; general audiences do not go to Trek movies because they're hoping for an update on the aftermath of the Dominion War or whatever. That's the stuff of chat room debates, not major motion pictures.
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