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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 19 2014, 03:37 PM   #331
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Agreed that Ron Pearlman was totally and utterly wasted - I didn't even know it was him until a few months ago!
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Old February 20 2014, 11:06 AM   #332
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I watched NEM on TV yesterday.
I say the 2nd half is better than the first.
I think its got quite a lot of action and like another thread says it looks beautiful. I think the effects are good.
I don't know why space is looking green though but heh it looks nice.

I don't mind the sentimentality of the first half so much its just that I don't consider it well written. All that stuff with B4 just needed a better script or better direction IMO. I just didn't think the B4 jokes to be funny at all.
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Old February 20 2014, 11:57 AM   #333
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I cant explain it any better than redlettermedia did

it was an ok movie, with a lot of problems
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Old February 20 2014, 06:05 PM   #334
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I don't know why space is looking green though but heh it looks nice.
looks like something out of ALIEN ( there wasn't any green in the film but was on the egg poster, maybe they took it from that)
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Old February 20 2014, 06:07 PM   #335
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I kinda like the green stuff in it, it helps to give the film it's own visual identity, but then so did the Matrix films which were out before it...
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Old February 22 2014, 04:22 PM   #336
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I was thinking...not only would the movie have been much stronger if Shinzon had been Stewart playing a fully-aged clone, but--and forgive me if somebody has brought this up already--the B4 story could have actually worked if they'd done the reverse, and had another actor playing the role. Instead of yet another Soong android played by Spiner, have it be a not-entirely-successful Romulan prototype (TNG implied that they were trying). It could have made better use of some elements of that storyline...Data taking a disadvantaged android under his wing, trying to help it achieve its full potential...while ditching the too-blatant reset button quality of the character.
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Old February 22 2014, 06:14 PM   #337
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I think that's a decent idea, another example of the wasted opportunity that the film represents (despite my affection for it)
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Old February 22 2014, 06:52 PM   #338
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I agree. Nemesis was a very good movie. And since we'll never have another TNG movie (at least with the original cast) we can only wish there were more like it.
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Old February 24 2014, 07:21 AM   #339
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Imagine if Star Trek V WAS in fact the last TOS film. Imagine the hate for it from the fans... The thing is, the TOS crew got their sendoff after a "letdown" movie. If Nemesis had occurred in the middle of the TNG movie run instead of the end, I am betting that we wouldn't be so hard on it.
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Old February 24 2014, 08:29 AM   #340
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sovereign wrote: View Post
Imagine if Star Trek V WAS in fact the last TOS film. Imagine the hate for it from the fans... The thing is, the TOS crew got their sendoff after a "letdown" movie. If Nemesis had occurred in the middle of the TNG movie run instead of the end, I am betting that we wouldn't be so hard on it.
This!
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Old February 24 2014, 09:48 AM   #341
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Good point!
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Old March 1 2014, 09:37 AM   #342
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

- The Romulan chick who was perfectly happy to provide Earth with a dusting of Thaylaron Radiation only turns her cheek when Shinzon (cruelly) rejects her. NOW, she's this open-minded, tolerant Romulan we are meant to be in support of, because she teams up with ENT-E to kick that same Shinzon's ass ... and because she's cute, I guess.
Yup! lol

The CGI nature of most of the effects is obsenely apparent and the sound effects suck - especially for the quantum torpedoes, which "splat" when they hit. And worst of all, the TNG cast - especially Marina and Gates - are allowed to look like they were rode hard and hung up wet. The ladies look like shit. It's inexcusable, considering the youthifying treatments Kirk and company were given in TMP.
I feel sorry for Gates McFadden. She was probably the hottest female on TNG, but in Nemesis she looks about 80 years old, take a year or so.

I’ll say that Brent Spiner also looked pretty old. However, the horribly caked makeup didn’t help anything. Why couldn’t they just stick to the TNG makeup, which looked 10 times better!

Perhaps Nemesis' worst legacy is that its failure drove Tom Hardy into a downward spiral of addiction and depression that nearly killed him.
Addiction to what? Steroids? He looks quite beefy in Dark Knight Rises compared to the waif he was in Nemesis

Often times, sure, the complaints are justified, but sometimes (and I'm not directing this at you, 2takes) it seems some fans are just saying "This isn't exactly how I like my movies and they should have made it to please only me!" and it comes across as a bit juvenile and selfish. Especially once we talk about how the Romulans were involved and the movie people WANTED with them, which was never shown or intended, which is an incredibly unfair criticism.
When a movie is enjoyable, you find it easier to ignore inconsistencies, and/or missing pieces of story.

When a movie was horrible, it’s so much easier to nitpick everything that was bad in it.

Juvenile and selfish? You've got a directer who cannot pronounce his actors' names right and a producer who thinks that this family friendly franchise can actually benefit from having a three way mind rape of one of it's female characters. A three way rape scene... in a Star Trek movie…
Made worse by Captain Picard asking Troi to do it again for benefit of the ship.

Sure. And there's been NO controversy on this board about THAT at all, has there?
I just pretend Valeris is having a Vulcan orgasm

Makes the scene 10 times better for me.

It has good bits (Data's sacrifice and Geordi's poignant reaction, the car chase, the... other stuff, probably)
You consider Data’s death, and that horrid dune buggy scene to be “good bits”. Wow ok.

But I will say this: The dune buggy scene was at the request of Patrick Stewart, who apparently likes racing cars. The thing is, the character of Jean-Luc Picard had no interest whatsoever in fast cars. He was a genteel space explorer, not Mario Andretti. So Patrick Stewart is actually playing Patrick Stewart in that scene, not Jean-Luc Picard. This is what happens when the film's actors have creative control over the film.
You can tell by that goofy grin he has while driving that stupid dune buggy around. Fuck you Patrick Stewart!

I think part of why the TNG films never really worked that well was because they weren't really necessary. TNG wasn't cut down after only three seasons, it ran for seven, and didn't end abruptly, but rather amid enormous fanfare in an acclaimed two-hour finale that wraps up the show and its themes. Its movies didn't come after a decade of fans wandering in the wilderness, but rather six months later, sandwiched between the third season premiere of DS9 and the series premiere of Voyager. In retrospect, there's a certain sense of contractural obligation in the TNG films that isn't there in either the TOS or Abrams films: they're not doing this because they have an awesome story they want to tell, but instead because the suits at the front office expect them to.
No, the TNG films sucked because they had no scope. They didn’t reach for something epic and imaginative. The good TNG episodes did. All except First Contact were basically cardboard cutout baddies and generic stories about defeating them. First Contact was the only TNG movie that had any scope to it.

interesting points. TNG films definitely had a extended tv episode feel to them esp GEN as everyone looked exactly the same as season 7 and it was on all the TNG tv sets/same uniforms etc. Basically TNG The Movie. INS felt like a rather dull two parter from season 6. FC &NEM had the most movie feel, and FC was riding the alien invasion wave of 96.

However TOS movies all looked/felt like big movies even the lower budget ones. Part of that was due to the big time gap, how everything and everyone looked different
Everyone looked virtually the same in TMP, but the sets and styles were different. They could have done so with TNG.

I think another important reason for the dune buggy scene is that it was the only real piece of location shooting in the whole movie (aside from the brief wedding scene). If you cut that out, almost the entire movie takes place on a soundstage and it starts feeling a little small and television-y, like Wrath of Khan does.
IF they wanted a dune buggy scene, it could have been written into the story, as opposed to some throwaway cameo moment that makes zero difference to the story.

Remove the stupid dune buggy
Remove B4
Remove the mind-rape stuff
Redo the dumb "Shinzon spends ages persuading them he's good, then in the next scene they find out the truth"
Bigger roles for the non-Picard non-Data crew

For a radical change, they could have done was kill off Picard early in the film, say on buggy planet, and have them encounter his evil twin at Romulus. Have Data die at the end of the film too, as Spiner was far too big for his boots at this point.
You lost me at killing Data. And why does Picard have to die. What’s wrong with you people wanting to see beloved characters die? Fuck you all!!

It seemed like an extension of his obsessive hatred for Picard to me. Picard had everything, the humans had everything, Shinzy was raised in a mine by abusive Romulans and freaky Remans and was nothing but a duplicate anyway. The echo wanted to wipe out the voice and everything important to it.
I get this is what they were trying to sell. Really it’s just grasping at straws for a plot. It’s just not believable.

2. How "Trek" would it have been if Picard were fighting Shinzon to save Romulus? Stopping the genocide of their sworn enemy by risking their lives. That risk, in the end, brings peace between two worlds. Beautiful.
This is what I was expecting to be honest. It would have been very TNG’ish.

That "annotation" is juveline tripe worse than the screenplay it flaccidly attempts to skewer. I didn't bother beyond script page 1.
Reminds me of MST3k, which to me is almost as bad as this. Perhaps equal.

Even taking away the dilemma, and making it a straight "save the Baku!" movie the audience is left with "WTF are the Baku and why do we care about a group we've never seen before and won't see again?”
No, the problem wasn’t that the Baku were unknown. The problem was that they were arrogant pricks who seems to not deserve having their sorry asses saved. Also the movie heavily implied that Picard just wanted to get his dick wet inside some sweet sweet Anji pussy, and that was the sole reason he was doing what he did.

" but a big reason why Kahn worked in Star Trek II was because he was original in an episode of the show. There was a history there for both the characters and the audience to build off of.
I would say Khan worked because Ricardo Montalban played him so deliciously over the top, like a must ache twirling villain, but with some pathos to the character. He made you feel Khan’s anger at what he believed Kirk had done to him. Shinzon is just a whiny brat that seems to small for the shoes he’s trying to fill.

As for Data's death, like Kirk's, I was ok with it. For me, it was the completion of the "Data wants to be human" story arc that started all the way back in 1987 with "Encounter at Farpoint." By sacrificing himself for the good of his friends, he finally discovered his humanity. Plus, I agree with Brent Spiner, he could not keep playing Data forever. For an ageless android, he was starting to look old.
I hated both deaths, and feel they were completely unnecessary.

I believe us that loved the character of Data could give less of a fuck if he looked older. If they wanted to they could just write a throwaway line to explain it (something like he wants to “age” along with his friends, fuck, almost anything works)

Fuck you to all of you who are “ok” with Data’s death. That was the worst part of the movie, and the one thing I can’t forgive.

Generations as a concept is a great story, but when you realize that the entire premise of Generations and Kirk's return are predicated on Picard's inability to win a fist fight with a crazed scientist you begin to realize how silly the whole thing is.
What makes it worse is how he goes from geriatric old coot, incapable of punching another old coot, to Space Rambo in First Contact. Would have been awesome if they tied that together somehow.

Yep. The movie's biggest mistake that cancelled out all the other mistakes.

If Brent Spiner never wants to play Data again, that's fine, but THIS should never have happened. Spiner should have just said, "okay, one last time, but that's it.", and then just quit. I would have been fine with that. I hate character deaths as closure.
Damn right!!!

What’s with character deaths anyway? Aren’t people getting tired of that old trope? Everytime they want to wring “emotion” out of a character, they kill him off in a “noble” sacrifice.

Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!”
I laughed because I pictured that conversation in my mind! Even though TOS did have such an event in the episode “Mirror Mirror” . A sneaky but effective way to write an evil twin story, as opposed to the shit we got with NEM


I don't think that B4 had the processing power to "become" Data. If you take all my memories and copy them into someone with a brain disorder, would it still be "me”?
THIS is why to me the whole “B4 is Data” argument is made invalid.

He's not Data. Data died a noble death. What was left over was just a kick in the crotch to anyone who liked the character. He became most human when he faced his own mortality and opted to give his existence for another, but wait, here comes a carbon copy to take his place and cement him as being nothing more than a machine who can be downloaded into a new body whenever its convenient/contrived/convoluted.
Really?

So Data has to sacrifice himself to become human. What a load of shit!! Even if you were right, the movie could have written it so Data survives, and his sacrifice was still worthy.

A Picard evil clone would have worked better if he actually commandeered the Enterprise, nobody initially suspected, and used the ship to plot the UFP's destruction. The finale could have been good real Picard vs. evil clone Picard in Engineering, and before clone Picard can destroy the warp core Data sacrifices himself. this would have no Tom Hardy, and Sir Patrick playing a double role. lol..
You kill Data again, so your idea is nullified.

An even more interesting variation of that would be if the Romulan plan had been carried out...the Picard who'd commanded the Enterprise all those years was a sleeper-agent clone. The guy who'd spent the last 20ish years with the Remans was the original Picard, who'd become a rat bastard / lunatic. The clone Picard would overcome his conditioning and prove to be the true hero that everyone had always thought he was.
Hah hah! wow! They would have never had the balls to go along with that idea, but I love it! The clone redeeming himself at the end! Maybe rat bastard Picard could have been rehabilitated also?

"Insurrection" will make you wish you were watching TFF.
TFF is only the worst movie compared to the other TOS movies, and even though, it’s not that bad if you enjoy it for what it is and what it wanted to say.

TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.

Oh, I'm familiar with the term. I was just puzzled by its use in that context. I've seen a lot of criticisms, good and bad, directed at the new movies, but that they were too "metrosexual"?

That seemed to warrant a "huh?”
I’m going to guess that the poster meant that in nuTrek, Kirk, Spock and McCoy all look like young pretty boys who are well groomed and seem to take care of themselves physically, as to look handsome to women (and gay men).

At least original Kirk was pretty much the same in the TOS era. Spock and McCoy maybe not so much.
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Old March 1 2014, 01:16 PM   #343
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

'TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.'

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF
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Old March 2 2014, 08:19 AM   #344
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Smellmet wrote: View Post
'TFF is 10 times better than even First Contact IMO. It completely blows away every other TNG movie.'

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF
I'll admit that TFF had some huge issues, but the movie had its heart in the right place. I think it was the most TOS like movie out of all the TOS movies.

Generations was probably the most TNG like movie, but the problem was that it had no heart. It was just a derivative "crazy villain" story, and to add insult to injury, they kill off the most iconic character in all of Trek. Why why why???? Would you permanently kill Superman in a Justice League movie? I wonder if people would be saying it's "ok" if that were to be filmed.

As far as TFF vs FC, I don't know. I admit FC did have some heart, but that most mostly due to Frakes's and James Cromwell's acting ability (in this case, the ability to play off serious material as comic. Usually a hindrance, but in this case a benefit due to the more serious Borg infestation aboard the ship).

FC was an accidental success IMO. TFF was a failure, but a fun one to watch. I always get a kick of watching TFF, and it's probably my favourite TOS movie.

You cannot put INS anywhere near it. That was just a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I don't even know where to begin!?
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Old March 2 2014, 04:10 PM   #345
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Smellmet wrote: View Post

You lost me right there. Bar the big 3 scenes at the start, TFF is an absolute embarrassment of a movie.
All of their scenes were great--and played well on how long they have been inseparable. Moreover, Kirk's "I need my pain!" scene was ST gold, as longtime fans know exaclty what Kirk was referring to, and how that shaped his behavior across TOS, and in TWOK/TSFS.

Further, the heart of the story is classic ST--Kirk and his best friends are all painted as spiritual men, but their lives as explorers--wanting to know more is a rational motive for putting up with Sybok's quest. In the end, they already know the answer (Spock's brother mistakenly thinking he could find a location like some random town), but their faith--Kirk in particular--is tied to their explorer's gene.

Even the likes of Insurrection - whilst near the bottom of the pile, is still a competently made slick looking movie with nowhere near the problems of TFF
Insurrection was pure garbage. The new age characters (unfortunately nothing new to the Berman end of the franchise), pointless, weak villains, and a plot that made the most boring of TNG episodes seem like grand theater.
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