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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 17 2014, 02:50 PM   #316
EvilAgentCoop
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

But isn't Shinzon in a better position with a weaker Romulan Empire? Wouldn't he be better off saying "Put me in charge and THEN I'll take out Earth and cripple the Federation"? It seems like, by going after Earth first, he's cashing in his big bargaining chip before he gets anything in return.
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Old February 17 2014, 02:56 PM   #317
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

But during the movie, they are on his side - why would he turn on them at that point? All that would happen would be a civil war that he wouldn't necessarily win, after all he does only have 1 ship - the Scimitar
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Old February 17 2014, 09:14 PM   #318
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Smellmet wrote: View Post
But during the movie, they are on his side - why would he turn on them at that point? All that would happen would be a civil war that he wouldn't necessarily win, after all he does only have 1 ship - the Scimitar
But why does he want he want to run the Romulan Empire at all, if he hates all of them? It would be like a Jewish guy who wants to run Nazi Germany. That's the problem with this motive, the movie sets up Shinzon to hate the Romulans and somehow he wants to further their objectives instead. The movie sets up Shinzon's motive to be revenge rather then mere power lust, so it makes Shinzon's reason for attacking Earth even more unbelievable.

This motive would have worked better if Shinzon was a simply a powerful and ambitious Romulan commander, a patriot who is Picard's counter part in the Romulan fleet, who has reason to further the Romulan Empire's goals and would have more a concrete reason to hate the Federation, that is how you make an villain with good motives, make the motives make sense.

This would be like if in Wrath of Khan, after setting up that Khan hates Kirk, blames Kirk for his exile and the death of his wife, Khan instead decides to invade the Klingon Empire, just for kicks. It wouldn't make sense.
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Old February 17 2014, 10:24 PM   #319
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The fact that people have to perform so many backflips and logical contortions to make sense of Shinzon's motivations should be a clear indicator that he's a muddled, inconsistently-written villain. A good villain has clear motives. He can be an ambiguous character, but his actual motives--the specific threat he poses to the hero(es) of the story--need to be clearly defined, or you have failed in the purpose of creating a villain.
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Old February 17 2014, 10:45 PM   #320
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The fact that people have to perform so many backflips and logical contortions to make sense of Shinzon's motivations should be a clear indicator that he's a muddled, inconsistently-written villain. A good villain has clear motives. He can be an ambiguous character, but his actual motives--the specific threat he poses to the hero(es) of the story--need to be clearly defined, or you have failed in the purpose of creating a villain.
I will say that I am starting to agree with you. Some of the points brought up in this thread are relevant and something I did not see. It hasn't changed my opinion of the movie; it's still the second best TNG film (and about 500 of the 650 movies I remember watching in my life), but his motives are not as clear as I thought. There's not a logical, clear-cut motive and why he shifts from one moment to the next, is just bad writing. I still think he's interesting, but he fails to make the logic test.

I think the interplay with Picard and Shinzon is interesting and there is an old-fashioned TNG message attached to the movie. The crew works and an ensemble for the first time in the movie franchise (TNG). I am about to read a book called "Nature via Nurture" and one of my first thoughts when I picked it up was about this movie. I still don't understand why we focus on the flaws in this movie and Insurrection, and not on the other two films. I think because it was a commercial bomb, we have a tendency to find it an easy target.
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Old February 17 2014, 10:49 PM   #321
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shinzon's personal reason for destroying Earth is part of his obsession with Picard and the privileged life he led. It makes sense in a mentally ill kind of way - and Shinzon was most definitely mentally ill.

It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
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Old February 17 2014, 10:54 PM   #322
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon's personal reason for destroying Earth is part of his obsession with Picard and the privileged life he led. It makes sense in a mentally ill kind of way - and Shinzon was most definitely mentally ill.

It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
I think he's borderline. Just a guess.
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Old February 17 2014, 11:43 PM   #323
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
I think the Romulan army is always ready to make a coup d'État to get rid of a boring Praetor or a dangerous Praetor. The problem with Shinzon? His dangerousness was easily predictable, he had well-known reasons to be insane and a major Romulan hater.
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Old February 17 2014, 11:55 PM   #324
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon's personal reason for destroying Earth is part of his obsession with Picard and the privileged life he led. It makes sense in a mentally ill kind of way - and Shinzon was most definitely mentally ill.

It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
Exactly - they may be enemies but that didn't stop them being in cahoots with each other for their mutual benefit (CIA and Mr Laden anyone?)

I agree the film doesn't make this totally clear and muddies the water somewhat, but I've only really picked up on this upon reading this forum a full twelve years after seeing the movie on the big screen, granted forums like this are for precisely this purpose - picking apart the TV show/films that we are all fans of, but I still regard Shinzon's unclear motives as a minor nitpick of the movie rather than something that completely spoils my enjoyment of it.

I think the movie's bigger problems lie in the casting of Shinzon at all, rather than a Romulan commander as someone suggested earlier, the Remans, the whole B4 subplot and the buggy scene - all of which could have been simplified and tightened the film up somewhat.
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Old February 18 2014, 12:49 AM   #325
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon's personal reason for destroying Earth is part of his obsession with Picard and the privileged life he led.
But that's not borne out in the movie. As I said before, Shinzon seems not to care at all about what his Romulan lackeys want until he starts to die. Then all of a sudden for some inexplicable reason, he decides to attack Earth. If he was just doing it to hurt Picard, he certainly didn't make that at all clear. It seemed more like he was just doing it because he finally bowed to the Romulans' pressure, which also makes no sense (see next).

It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
Again, if he knew he was about to die, why bother keeping his deal?
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Old February 18 2014, 01:41 AM   #326
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Let me reemphasize...the Romulan military turned against him because he wanted to destroy Earth. It's right there in the movie. He's not keeping his part of the deal, he's putting it all at risk in order to attack Earth.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:29 AM   #327
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon's personal reason for destroying Earth is part of his obsession with Picard and the privileged life he led. It makes sense in a mentally ill kind of way - and Shinzon was most definitely mentally ill.

It was also part of his deal with the Romulan military, to ensure their cooperation with the coup.
But why would he hate Picard, over the Romulans? Picard has done nothing to him, while the Romulans actively ruined his life and I don't think simply killing the Senate leadership would be enough to satisfy his hated of them, after all the military had more to do with the direct enslavement of the Remans on the ground level. The Senate may have made the policy, but it was the military who enforced it on the Remans. Heck why are the Remans going along with this plan of Shinzon's, instead of planning revenge against their oppressors?

Again I think this would have been a stronger movie, if Shinzon's goal was to destroy Romulus and the Enterprise must fight tooth and nail to save their mortal enemy. I think Shinzon's desire for revenge against those who wronged him, would have for a more interesting debates between Shinzon and Picard, instead of what we got, Picard appealing to Shinzon's human nature and Shinzon rejecting those arguments, because he is a one note, dime store James Bond villain who does evil things for no good reason.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:39 AM   #328
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Let me reemphasize...the Romulan military turned against him because he wanted to destroy Earth. It's right there in the movie. He's not keeping his part of the deal, he's putting it all at risk in order to attack Earth.
What's ironic is that the Romulans originally wanted to attack Earth and the Federation in order to conquer it. So...what's the difference between conquering Earth and destroying it if the Romulans still get what they want...a conquered Federation? Why didn't Donatra, Suran and the others just let Shinzon destroy Earth?

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Heck why are the Remans going along with this plan of Shinzon's, instead of planning revenge against their oppressors?
Because the Remans were just one-dimensional cardboard bad guys with no character development at all. Likewise, Ron Perlman's talents were completely wasted as the Viceroy.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:25 AM   #329
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Let me reemphasize...the Romulan military turned against him because he wanted to destroy Earth. It's right there in the movie. He's not keeping his part of the deal, he's putting it all at risk in order to attack Earth.
What's ironic is that the Romulans originally wanted to attack Earth and the Federation in order to conquer it. So...what's the difference between conquering Earth and destroying it if the Romulans still get what they want...a conquered Federation? Why didn't Donatra, Suran and the others just let Shinzon destroy Earth?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Heck why are the Remans going along with this plan of Shinzon's, instead of planning revenge against their oppressors?
Because the Remans were just one-dimensional cardboard bad guys with no character development at all. Likewise, Ron Perlman's talents were completely wasted as the Viceroy.
Apology in advance ...

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Carry on.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:33 AM   #330
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

^Well, then, I'm glad I brought some humor into your day
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