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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 6 2014, 02:53 PM   #256
Jeyl
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

mendelin wrote: View Post
WORF: But didn't they say that the Remans see really well in the dark and can't stand bright lights? Why don't we crank up the lights to fullbright and blind 'em?
RIKER: Shut up and just try to look dramatic.
It's funny how a film went out of it's way to establish the Remans from hating bright lights and absolutely no payoff whatsoever. If you watch a film like Back to the Future, almost everything that is given screen time is a set up to a pay off, even building signs. These are the bad guys who upon first meeting them give us a weakness to exploit and they don't go anywhere with it.
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Old February 6 2014, 03:20 PM   #257
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

mendelin wrote: View Post
Smellmet wrote: View Post
I can't deny that link picks apart the movie to perfection and is very funny, but it still doesn't stop me enjoying it
I also enjoy Nemesis. I appreciate it as a valuable part of NextGen history. But Nemesis wasn't a proper finale of Berman's Star Trek story. It was unfinished. It still cries for good sequel. For it's final part, which indeed should have become a good send-off for TNG-crew (like Undiscovered Country was for TOS-crew). But it's too late, of course.
I'd say TNG got it's proper finale in "All Good Things" ...they just kept going, though.
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Old February 6 2014, 03:33 PM   #258
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

^This, 100%.
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Old February 6 2014, 04:43 PM   #259
mendelin
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'd say TNG got it's proper finale in "All Good Things" ...they just kept going, though.

TNG got it's proper finale in "All Good Things", indeed!

But after that "they just kept going". Maybe it was a mistake to make four pointless "to nowhere" movies?
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Old February 6 2014, 05:50 PM   #260
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I did like three of the TNG movies so I'm glad they made them. Maybe they should have had AGT as the last movie instead of the end of the TV series.
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Old February 6 2014, 09:12 PM   #261
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

If they'd have just thrown more money at the films and created a story arc that ran through them things would have been so different. I'm in the middle of a rewatch of these movies and it's just so apparent what a wasted opportunity they all were, it's depressing. I do think Nemesis was a reasonable effort compared to the others at least in terms of action, sets and visual effects though - If it Insurrection never happened and it was released in it's place I think it would have done far better at the box office and would have been a great follow up to the overrated First Contact
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Old February 7 2014, 04:14 AM   #262
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

<<But Nemesis wasn't a proper finale of Berman's Star Trek story. >>

Yes, that was "These Are These Voyages"!
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Old February 7 2014, 06:10 AM   #263
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I'd say TNG got it's proper finale in "All Good Things" ...they just kept going, though.
The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?

But on reflection, this meant that the TNG movies were somewhat directionless. There wasn't anywhere else left to go with those characters, but they opted to limp on every few years doing new adventures with them anyway, retrospectively ruining the effect of AGT as a result.

The TOS movies still had places to go, because that show got cancelled and they all came back to the characters ten years later or whatever, meaning we could explore new aspects of all these people and how they interacted with each other.

By contrast, the TNG movies were always just some additional adventures taking place right after the series ended. Picking up right where AGT left off. They had no wriggle room left to do anything interesting with the characters or their setting, apart from cosmetic details like giving Data emotions (which was quickly rescinded anyway), or blowing up the ship and replacing it with a new one (which didn't make a squat of difference to the actual stories).

One thing I will say for NEM is that it at least does have pretensions towards trying to provide some sort of closure on TNG in a way that even AGT didn't. Even though a lot of that material was sadly left on the cutting room floor.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:04 AM   #264
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I didn't need any closure. AGT wrapped TNG up perfectly.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:39 AM   #265
Dukhat
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?
Yes, it does. If, say, the decision was made to make an 8th season instead of the movies, then they could have taken an entire year to provide closure for the crew. We could have seen Picard and Beverly finally get together. They could have retired and gotten married, while Riker would eventually have gotten the command of the Enterprise-D he'd always wanted for the last 7 years. He and Deanna could have gotten hitched along with the Picards. I could also see Data getting a command of his own (maybe a Starfleet Corp of Engineers ship) and taking Geordi with him as his first officer. And finally we could have seen Worf return to the Klingon homeworld as a council member or something.

Instead, we got eight collective hours of the Stewart and Spiner Show, with little to no character development for anyone else.
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Old February 9 2014, 02:52 AM   #266
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
mendelin wrote: View Post
WORF: But didn't they say that the Remans see really well in the dark and can't stand bright lights? Why don't we crank up the lights to fullbright and blind 'em?
RIKER: Shut up and just try to look dramatic.
It's funny how a film went out of it's way to establish the Remans from hating bright lights and absolutely no payoff whatsoever. If you watch a film like Back to the Future, almost everything that is given screen time is a set up to a pay off, even building signs. These are the bad guys who upon first meeting them give us a weakness to exploit and they don't go anywhere with it.
Perhaps they were trying to make Riker look more awesome by defeating them in the dark.

I get it that Riker had to go there himself to avenge his woman but I was also wondering where were the rest of the crew. Maybe Riker chucked an early Kirk and insisted I'll deal with these intruders myself as they wronged me personally. Even if thats the case I don't think its Riker's style to endanger the ship like that.
Or maybe the rest of the crew were looking somewhere else. Was it explained why they just couldn't transport the intruders out?
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Old February 9 2014, 04:24 AM   #267
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Riker had to go alone because the secret of the bottomless pit on the lowest deck of the ship is highly classified....
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Old February 9 2014, 07:28 AM   #268
gottacook
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?
Yes, it does. If, say, the decision was made to make an 8th season instead of the movies, then they could have taken an entire year to provide closure for the crew. We could have seen Picard and Beverly finally get together. They could have retired and gotten married, while Riker would eventually have gotten the command of the Enterprise-D he'd always wanted for the last 7 years. He and Deanna could have gotten hitched along with the Picards. I could also see Data getting a command of his own (maybe a Starfleet Corp of Engineers ship) and taking Geordi with him as his first officer. And finally we could have seen Worf return to the Klingon homeworld as a council member or something.

Instead, we got eight collective hours of the Stewart and Spiner Show, with little to no character development for anyone else.
So the question of this thread - which for the most part has been interpreted as "Could Nemesis ever have been any good?" - might better be regarded as "Could any final TNG feature film have been considered a decent conclusion to the series of films featuring that cast?" - that is, accorded the same value that most fans give Undiscovered Country as an original-cast finale.

To which my answer is: Well, no. If the movies were going to be (contractually, in advance, as they surely were) the Stewart & Spiner Show, then any possible final TNG-cast film - including films never made, or better edits of films that were released - would have been unsatisfactory. (By contrast, Undiscovered Country was surely not the Kirk & Spock Show.)
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Old February 9 2014, 12:42 PM   #269
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

That's one of the reason why Undiscovered Country was a good movie because everyone has his moment to shine
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Old February 9 2014, 01:37 PM   #270
2takesfrakes
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I was also wondering where were the rest of the crew. Maybe Riker chucked an early Kirk and insisted I'll deal with these intruders myself as they wronged me personally. Even if thats the case I don't think its Riker's style to endanger the ship like that.
Or maybe the rest of the crew were looking somewhere else. Was it explained why they just couldn't transport the intruders out?
NEMESIS didn't mention the intruders outside of their existance and Picard's order to Riker to go handle it. This movie doesn't go on to explain much of anything it introduces, which is some of the laziest writing I've ever encountered in a movie.

Shinzon doesn't explain the source of Picard's DNA he came from. YES, I know that Shinzon states that the Romulans "somehow" got a hold of it, inferring that he doesn't know. But that's more John Logan's fault than Shinzon's, let's face it. Also, B-4's origins are not explained. In fact, "we" can't even be certain that B-4 and Data were even created by the same man. Everything stated about B-4's likely beginings is pure speculation, on the part of the crew. What's more, Shinzon does not explain how he found a replica of his own replica's favourite android. Nor does Picard probe Shinzon further on this, at all. This script steadfastly refuses to explain anything about itself ...
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